Downtown Omaha versus Downtown Des Moines

[ita]

This isn't meant to be an ego inflating/deflating topic.

I have been to Des Moines a couple times but not through their downtown. Closest I get to downtown is driving on I-235. Honestly, it looks great and dense from what I can tell driving by. Their cluster of tall 300+ foot buildings is great visually. Additionally, just looking through downtown DSM on Google Earth via satellite and street view and I don't notice a lot of surface parking lots, particularly in their CBD. They also seemed to have had quite a few modern downtown buildings bigger than the usual 4+1's. I also noticed that they retained many of their historic buildings, particularly those for civic use. Lastly, while it looks quite dense comparable to downtown, there doesn't seem to be a lot of ground floor activity, which is odd considering the lack of surface lots. A lot of their office buildings in particular lack any ground floor retail or seem to not be designed to be pedestrian friendly.

So a couple questions for those who know the history or have been in the region a while, how did Des Moines not sacrifice buildings for surface parking at a rate like downtown Omaha? It doesn't seem to have any completely dead zones like Farnam and Harney between 24th and 20th as well as surface lots located in dense areas like we do in the Old Market. How have they managed seemingly significant new development throughout downtown? However, on the other hand, why does it seem dead?

[skinzfan23]

I agree Des Moines does look pretty dense when driving on 235. One thing that helps with that is downtown being flat, unlike Omaha.

As for the low number of ground floor retail, I wonder if all the skywalks have something to do with it.

[Cermak]

I just drove by it on I-235 last month, it does look pretty dense. They seem to have most of their tall buildings clustered close together, not spread out. And they have a few more 300 footers than Omaha. This just creates a denser look along with the flatter terrain. Omaha's overall downtown footprint is larger I believe at least it feels like it to me.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Omaha's overall downtown footprint is larger. And once the Mutual building is completed that should help Omaha tremendously.

This is correct. Omaha’s downtown footprint and urban core is larger- and more dense than DSM. That said, I was in downtown Des Moines recently- visited a brewery taproom downtown, and it had a nice “open” but urban feel to it. Des Moines is an impressive metro and a pretty nice place to drop in, visit and have some fun from time to time..

And absolutely YES- when the Mutual of Omaha tower tops out and is completed, there will be a NOTICEABLE difference in downtown with two 600+ foot skyscrapers- along with the 478 foot Woodmen..Hopefully we’ll get some development soon at the 1416 Dodge site..and a 350-400 tower announcement would be a perfect round out to the skyline …

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Cermak]

Omaha's overall downtown footprint is larger. And once the Mutual building is completed that should help Omaha tremendously.

This is correct. Omaha’s downtown footprint and urban core is larger- and more dense than DSM. That said, I was in downtown Des Moines recently- visited a brewery taproom downtown, and it had a nice “open” but urban feel to it. Des Moines is an impressive metro and a pretty nice place to drop in, visit and have some fun from time to time..

And absolutely YES- when the Mutual of Omaha tower tops out and is completed, there will be a NOTICEABLE difference in downtown with two 600+ foot skyscrapers- along with the 478 foot Woodmen..Hopefully we’ll get some development soon at the 1416 Dodge site..and a 350-400 tower announcement would be a perfect round out to the skyline …

Ciao..LiO…Peace

Not to change the subject but I was also in Iowa City over the Memorial Day weekend. Very impressive Downtown, I would say after Des Moines it's Iowa's 2nd most impressive city, in my opinion.

[ita]

Omaha's overall downtown footprint is larger. And once the Mutual building is completed that should help Omaha tremendously.

This is correct. Omaha’s downtown footprint and urban core is larger- and more dense than DSM. That said, I was in downtown Des Moines recently- visited a brewery taproom downtown, and it had a nice “open” but urban feel to it. Des Moines is an impressive metro and a pretty nice place to drop in, visit and have some fun from time to time..

And absolutely YES- when the Mutual of Omaha tower tops out and is completed, there will be a NOTICEABLE difference in downtown with two 600+ foot skyscrapers- along with the 478 foot Woodmen..Hopefully we’ll get some development soon at the 1416 Dodge site..and a 350-400 tower announcement would be a perfect round out to the skyline …

Ciao..LiO…Peace

Not to change the subject but I was also in Iowa City over the Memorial Day weekend. Very impressive Downtown, I would say after Des Moines it's Iowa's 2nd most impressive city, in my opinion.

Just going to jump in a say Iowa City is a neat city. Their River Crossing development is what Village Pointe should of been.

Also, appreciate everyone's thoughts about Des Moines's downtown. For those, like Cowboy, who have spent time in DSM downtown, is it more lively than what it seems like based on what I am seeing from streetview?

The fact that it is flat is a good point about how it enhances their skyline. Also, I noticed that their downtown area across from Raccoon River is nicely developed. I get it's a different animal from Omaha's across the river part of downtown with Omaha's Riverfront split between different states across the Missouri, flood risks on CB side. Plus, DSM having the capitol campus. We are catching up on that end for sure.

[CBJason]

The skywalk system started about the same time or slightly before the building boom of the dense core of high rises we now see. So street level retail and activity probably wasn’t considered. The lack of building stock loss is probably because they didn’t have an abundance of it to begin with. They were no stockyards or industrial area with mid rise brick buildings some CEO could cherry pick to have destroyed. The area across the river is the EAST Village and has progressed to their version of the Old Market the last 15-20 years.

[Garrett]

It helps that Des Moines’s downtown is so central to their metropolitan area, whereas Omaha’s is on the eastern side. As others of mentioned, Omaha’s urban core is fairly stretched out into multiple sections (downtown, midtown, UNMC), whereas Des Moines is just downtown. I’m not super familiar with Des Moines to talk about neighborhood business districts, so I’m not sure what their stock of old streetcar suburbs is like a la Benson, Dundee, Blackstone, 24th/Lake, South O, and Little Bohemia is like. And of course the State Capitol being in Des Moines is a big influence as well.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Omaha's overall downtown footprint is larger. And once the Mutual building is completed that should help Omaha tremendously.

This is correct. Omaha’s downtown footprint and urban core is larger- and more dense than DSM. That said, I was in downtown Des Moines recently- visited a brewery taproom downtown, and it had a nice “open” but urban feel to it. Des Moines is an impressive metro and a pretty nice place to drop in, visit and have some fun from time to time..

And absolutely YES- when the Mutual of Omaha tower tops out and is completed, there will be a NOTICEABLE difference in downtown with two 600+ foot skyscrapers- along with the 478 foot Woodmen..Hopefully we’ll get some development soon at the 1416 Dodge site..and a 350-400 tower announcement would be a perfect round out to the skyline …

Ciao..LiO…Peace

Not to change the subject but I was also in Iowa City over the Memorial Day weekend. Very impressive Downtown, I would say after Des Moines it's Iowa's 2nd most impressive city, in my opinion.

Just going to jump in a say Iowa City is a neat city. Their River Crossing development is what Village Pointe should of been.

Also, appreciate everyone's thoughts about Des Moines's downtown. For those, like Cowboy, who have spent time in DSM downtown, is it more lively than what it seems like based on what I am seeing from streetview?

Cedar Rapids IA also has a nice downtown and is more urban looking than one would think- they have a couple of decently sized high rises in their DT core..

Regarding Des Moines, I think compared to 10-15 years ago, their downtown area is more lively than it once was- they do have pockets of areas in their core that would be considered decent to good for lively nightlife. While Des Moines does not have the significant traditional areas for entertainment (Old Market, Capitol District, the ever evolving North Downtown, a significant series of urban parks like Omaha has), it is improved and is betting better..

I rather enjoy the people I’ve visited with in Des Moines. Always nice folks and most all of them, seem to have a higher opinion of Omaha than many of our locals here do. Which speaks volumes ..

Des Moines is a fine city and metro; and is definitely worth a day trip to explore it…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Bob from Omaha]

Downtown DM has an advantage over Omaha. It has a LOT more downtown employees than Omaha. Quite a few large Insurance companies. Also others. I mean, there is no comparison. It's been that way for decades. I don't know what covid did to it but before that downtown DM had tens of thousands of downtown employees. No bull.
I like DM. It's a very progressive city and I don't mean woke or whatever. Local business leaders are very involved. On the other hand, and I don't have hard data, I don't think they have any Buffet billionaires. Having said that DM punches way over their weight.

[ita]

Downtown DM has an advantage over Omaha. It has a LOT more downtown employees than Omaha. Quite a few large Insurance companies. Also others. I mean, there is no comparison. It's been that way for decades. I don't know what covid did to it but before that downtown DM had tens of thousands of downtown employees. No bull.
I like DM. It's a very progressive city and I don't mean woke or whatever. Local business leaders are very involved. On the other hand, and I don't have hard data, I don't think they have any Buffet billionaires. Having said that DM punches way over their weight.

I just looked it up and as of 2023, downtown DSM counts 71k jobs after some hard loses, including Wells Fargo. Here's one article about it: https://www.axios.com/local/des-moines/ ... oyee-count.

Wow, I didn't know we had that much of a discrepancy. The recent streetcar and urban core plans state that as of 2014 downtown Omaha had but 28k jobs. I am not sure if that includes Midtown and UNMC. But that's a huge difference nonetheless and helps explain why DSM downtown looks the way it does. Even if Omaha adds 30k jobs in 20 year, per the urban core plan, Omaha would still be at least 10k jobs behind current downtown DSM numbers. That's amazing. Anyway something to aspire to.

What factors played into DSM being able to retain and attract businesses downtown?

[ita]

The skywalk system started about the same time or slightly before the building boom of the dense core of high rises we now see. So street level retail and activity probably wasn’t considered. The lack of building stock loss is probably because they didn’t have an abundance of it to begin with. They were no stockyards or industrial area with mid rise brick buildings some CEO could cherry pick to have destroyed. The area across the river is the EAST Village and has progressed to their version of the Old Market the last 15-20 years.

Old Market with a West Elm. Interesting take on the lack of street level retail tied to less historical building stock.

[ita]

It helps that Des Moines’s downtown is so central to their metropolitan area, whereas Omaha’s is on the eastern side. As others of mentioned, Omaha’s urban core is fairly stretched out into multiple sections (downtown, midtown, UNMC), whereas Des Moines is just downtown. I’m not super familiar with Des Moines to talk about neighborhood business districts, so I’m not sure what their stock of old streetcar suburbs is like a la Benson, Dundee, Blackstone, 24th/Lake, South O, and Little Bohemia is like. And of course the State Capitol being in Des Moines is a big influence as well.

Centralization of downtown DSM is a good point and I know you've brought it up before. Our development patterns, forging west with highway and West Dodge development helped neuter downtown. Our office market is primarily on Dodge. Unfortunately, at least for downtown, office concentration stretches from the River to 180th. The other big concentration is Aksarben, but that's a more recent development. It would of been nice if folks like Applied Underwriters, Farm Credit, and others built in downtown versus out west.

Note: I don't want to miss giving credit, however, to folks who have reupped their commitment to downtown like Kiewit, MoO and Deloitte. There are still those who want to be in the urban core, and I am grateful for those companies.

[CBJason]

What factors played into DSM being able to retain and attract businesses downtown?

Somehow DSM became the second largest city behind Hartford for insurance HQ's and regional offices.

[Cermak]

What factors played into DSM being able to retain and attract businesses downtown?

Somehow DSM became the second largest city behind Hartford for insurance HQ's and regional offices.

Think the state of Iowa has very favorable business friendly insurance laws and regulations.

[Bob from Omaha]

The fact is that there were a few Des Moines insurance companies that were bought out but by non Iowa insurance companies that retained a presence in Des Moines.

[Greg S]

It helps that Des Moines’s downtown is so central to their metropolitan area, whereas Omaha’s is on the eastern side. As others of mentioned, Omaha’s urban core is fairly stretched out into multiple sections (downtown, midtown, UNMC), whereas Des Moines is just downtown. I’m not super familiar with Des Moines to talk about neighborhood business districts, so I’m not sure what their stock of old streetcar suburbs is like a la Benson, Dundee, Blackstone, 24th/Lake, South O, and Little Bohemia is like. And of course the State Capitol being in Des Moines is a big influence as well.

Centralization of downtown DSM is a good point and I know you've brought it up before. Our development patterns, forging west with highway and West Dodge development helped neuter downtown. Our office market is primarily on Dodge. Unfortunately, at least for downtown, office concentration stretches from the River to 180th. The other big concentration is Aksarben, but that's a more recent development. It would of been nice if folks like Applied Underwriters, Farm Credit, and others built in downtown versus out west.

Note: I don't want to miss giving credit, however, to folks who have reupped their commitment to downtown like Kiewit, MoO and Deloitte. There are still those who want to be in the urban core, and I am grateful for those companies.

Another hit to downtown was HDR. That would have really helped on the workforce side. Ak Sar Ben is thriving and is definitely competition for workforce to downtown, as Toast moved there from downtown.

[Athomsfere]

One problem I have with DSM is how fast and completely the urban feel falls off.

Lots of areas like this
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5921449 ... ?entry=ttu

Suburban and empty to high rises. DSM always feels a little disconnected from being a truly functional city to me. Nice pockets here and there, but just not quite right.

[skinzfan23]

Downtown DM has an advantage over Omaha. It has a LOT more downtown employees than Omaha. Quite a few large Insurance companies. Also others. I mean, there is no comparison. It's been that way for decades. I don't know what covid did to it but before that downtown DM had tens of thousands of downtown employees. No bull.
I like DM. It's a very progressive city and I don't mean woke or whatever. Local business leaders are very involved. On the other hand, and I don't have hard data, I don't think they have any Buffet billionaires. Having said that DM punches way over their weight.

I added this to the downtown vacancy thread but Des Moines is very different now vs pre-covid:

I found this on Des Moines' 4th quarter report:
The amount of vacant office space in Des Moines’ central business district has more than doubled in the past four years, according to CBRE’s fourth-quarter market report. In 2022’s fourth quarter, 17.9%, or 1.16 million square feet, of the downtown area’s more than 6.5 million square feet of office space was vacant, the report showed. In 2019’s first quarter, 7.6%, or 477,573 square feet, of downtown’s office space was vacant, CBRE data showed.
Add to that all the vacated buildings that Wells Fargo is leaving downtown for W. Des Moines and that % is going to jump even higher since the combined space between those buildings is over 870,000 square feet. (so if I do the math correctly that would bring it to around 31.2% if everything else holds constant.)

I would love to have all the 300-ft office buildings, but if 30% of space is vacant, that as far as people being downtown and money spent downtown isn't as high as one might think.

[Renovator2559]

This isn't meant to be an ego inflating/deflating topic.

I have been to Des Moines a couple times but not through their downtown. Closest I get to downtown is driving on I-235. Honestly, it looks great and dense from what I can tell driving by. Their cluster of tall 300+ foot buildings is great visually. Additionally, just looking through downtown DSM on Google Earth via satellite and street view and I don't notice a lot of surface parking lots, particularly in their CBD. They also seemed to have had quite a few modern downtown buildings bigger than the usual 4+1's. I also noticed that they retained many of their historic buildings, particularly those for civic use. Lastly, while it looks quite dense comparable to downtown, there doesn't seem to be a lot of ground floor activity, which is odd considering the lack of surface lots. A lot of their office buildings in particular lack any ground floor retail or seem to not be designed to be pedestrian friendly.

So a couple questions for those who know the history or have been in the region a while, how did Des Moines not sacrifice buildings for surface parking at a rate like downtown Omaha? It doesn't seem to have any completely dead zones like Farnam and Harney between 24th and 20th as well as surface lots located in dense areas like we do in the Old Market. How have they managed seemingly significant new development throughout downtown? However, on the other hand, why does it seem dead?

I am quite familiar with Des Moines downtown, I have lived in DSM for a month or so. Des Moines although has a perceived denser downtown, it is mostly corporate buildings and hardly any activity by locals. The court district is quite small compared to the Old Market. I visit Des Moines often since I have family in there. Des Moines does not have a variety of restaurants and bars like Omaha downtown does.

I was just in Des Moines last month and by far, Omaha has much more activity, much more alive, much more things to do. There is hardly anything to do in Des Moines. Des Moines is a nice corporate city with a tiny park in their downtown (typical generic green space).
Des Moines is often seen as a downtown to work and head back to the suburbs, because there is not much to do in downtown, people in the suburbs that don't work in the suburbs have no reason to visit DSM downtown.

Also mayor Jeane Stothert, has a bold vision of Omaha and has a track record of doing what she says; though as for Des Moines the city is run well but does not have bold vision projects to redefine their urban core.

Also about Omaha being hilly, I love the hills, it gives Omaha character and not your typical flat city.

Still Omaha and Des Moines complement each other, I love the fact that Des Moines and Omaha are both in the top lists of things like livability, family friendly, good economies and are both run by competent mayors.

[Elkhorn_Urbanist]

Can't tell you how long I've been a lurker on this site, probably since close to 2007 when I moved here, likely WST era. But since I have trouble putting myself out there on the internet I've never posted, only enjoyed the conversations, updates, speculation, and insider information. That being said, I took a trip with my wife to Minneapolis this weekend, and can't help but see so many similarities between Omaha and the Twin Cities (though there are huge differences to be sure). On both the drive there and the drive back we went through Des Moines on I-235, and I had some thoughts:

1. When going south on 35/235 towards downtown, there are really only two impactful tall buildings, 801 Grand, and Ruan Center. In that respect the two skylines, Omaha and Des Moines, are very similar with Woodmen and FNB for Omaha.
2. As you cross the Des Moines river you really see the cluster of mid-rises and 300's to the south east, but I would say that from a purely visual perspective this impact is similar to viewing Omaha from the I-80 bridge over the Missouri with its cluster of shorter buildings around the "big 2".
3. It seems as though DSM may have kept a few more of their older towers, with the most notable one being the Equitable Live Building. Truly an awesome looking building. Reminds me of the pictures of the old Fontanelle Hotel building (what might have been).
4. The addition of MoO building is going to have an enormous impact on the skyline that is hard grasp and I think will set the two apart. Omaha won't turn into DT Minneapolis, but it'll feel like a different league from before.
5. I would echo the previous comments regarding the spreading out of employment centers in Omaha. After DT, there doesn't appear to be that many significant employment center on DSM except for maybe the Jordan Creek/junction of I-80 and I-35/235, at least visually from the interstate. This compares to Omaha with Midtown/UNMC, Aksarben, Old Mill, West Dodge, which does spread out both employment and potential buildings. This is all, of course, for better or worse.
6. Last thing I wanted to note, DSM and it's down-town, just seem more compact overall compared to Omaha. Don't know of this is a density thing, a size thing, a difference between landscape or my own personal perception.

All in all, kinda fun to think about on our drive and I was glad that I could bore, I mean educate, my wife about development, transport, history, in Omaha and its surrounding cities. Looking forward to maybe being more of an active member.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Can't tell you how long I've been a lurker on this site, probably since close to 2007 when I moved here, likely WST era. But since I have trouble putting myself out there on the internet I've never posted, only enjoyed the conversations, updates, speculation, and insider information. That being said, I took a trip with my wife to Minneapolis this weekend, and can't help but see so many similarities between Omaha and the Twin Cities (though there are huge differences to be sure). On both the drive there and the drive back we went through Des Moines on I-235, and I had some thoughts:

1. When going south on 35/235 towards downtown, there are really only two impactful tall buildings, 801 Grand, and Ruan Center. In that respect the two skylines, Omaha and Des Moines, are very similar with Woodmen and FNB for Omaha.
2. As you cross the Des Moines river you really see the cluster of mid-rises and 300's to the south east, but I would say that from a purely visual perspective this impact is similar to viewing Omaha from the I-80 bridge over the Missouri with its cluster of shorter buildings around the "big 2".
3. It seems as though DSM may have kept a few more of their older towers, with the most notable one being the Equitable Live Building. Truly an awesome looking building. Reminds me of the pictures of the old Fontanelle Hotel building (what might have been).
4. The addition of MoO building is going to have an enormous impact on the skyline that is hard grasp and I think will set the two apart. Omaha won't turn into DT Minneapolis, but it'll feel like a different league from before.
5. I would echo the previous comments regarding the spreading out of employment centers in Omaha. After DT, there doesn't appear to be that many significant employment center on DSM except for maybe the Jordan Creek/junction of I-80 and I-35/235, at least visually from the interstate. This compares to Omaha with Midtown/UNMC, Aksarben, Old Mill, West Dodge, which does spread out both employment and potential buildings. This is all, of course, for better or worse.
6. Last thing I wanted to note, DSM and it's down-town, just seem more compact overall compared to Omaha. Don't know of this is a density thing, a size thing, a difference between landscape or my own personal perception.

All in all, kinda fun to think about on our drive and I was glad that I could bore, I mean educate, my wife about development, transport, history, in Omaha and its surrounding cities. Looking forward to maybe being more of an active member.

Well, that’s a great first post ..

I believe you are on point with all of your thoughts. Welcome to the forum and post more often!…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[ita]

2. As you cross the Des Moines river you really see the cluster of mid-rises and 300's to the south east, but I would say that from a purely visual perspective this impact is similar to viewing Omaha from the I-80 bridge over the Missouri with its cluster of shorter buildings around the "big 2".

This past weekend, I was coming back from Home Depot at Metro Crossing, right around dusk. Crossing the I-80 bridge is a good look for downtown. You get Bob Kerry Bridge lit up over the River. I think DSM still has a stronger impact because they have more 300+ footers and they all are clustered together, but Omaha's isn't far behind from certain angles. I would also add, I took 13th back into downtown and gosh, I love the view of downtown as you drive into it. You get separation of our high rises and, to me, at dusk especially, really looks fantastic.

[skinzfan23]

I like the view on I-80 over the river as well, but the hills from that angle really hurt the skyline view, that is where Des Moines is better since its on flat ground, which is why the downtown view of Omaha looks better coming from the north or in CB because it is more flat.

[Cermak]

I think the view on I-480 heading into downtown from I-80 should be drastically improved with the new Mutual tower, this is the most common view people in Omaha see of DT. The I-29 CB view from the north is without a doubt the best but people don't see it much because not many people live up that way, it's not a heavily populated part of the metro. I really think once this tower is completed it will be the envy of other midsized metros in the country. Even some larger metros like Tampa , Cincinnati and KC might take notice and be envious of Omaha's new 677 ft tower.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I also believe the drive into downtown on Abbott Drive from the airport will be particularly impressive. It’s impressive right now.. But once the Mutual Tower rises it’s going to be a dramatic postcard shot..

Adding a 677 FT skyscraper to Omaha’s skyline will really move it up a notch to another level..

Now if we could just get the 1416 Dodge parcel developed with a 350-400 footer …

Ciao..LiO…

[NEDodger]

I also believe the drive into downtown on Abbott Drive from the airport will be particularly impressive. It’s impressive right now.. But once the Mutual Tower rises it’s going to be a dramatic postcard shot..

Adding a 677 FT skyscraper to Omaha’s skyline will really move it up a notch to another level..

Now if we could just get the 1416 Dodge parcel developed with a 350-400 footer …

Ciao..LiO…

Yeah, I think that’s my favorite too. With the string of lights on both sides - that’s a pretty cool shot, because the buildings are spaced out well.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I also believe the drive into downtown on Abbott Drive from the airport will be particularly impressive. It’s impressive right now.. But once the Mutual Tower rises it’s going to be a dramatic postcard shot..

Adding a 677 FT skyscraper to Omaha’s skyline will really move it up a notch to another level..

Now if we could just get the 1416 Dodge parcel developed with a 350-400 footer …

Ciao..LiO…

Yeah, I think that’s my favorite too. With the string of lights on both sides - that’s a pretty cool shot, because the buildings are spaced out well.

Definitely so..

And on the other side, from the Post office on 10th St is a great skyline photo shot as well. Daytime and especially at night…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Elkhorn_Urbanist]

I also believe the drive into downtown on Abbott Drive from the airport will be particularly impressive. It’s impressive right now.. But once the Mutual Tower rises it’s going to be a dramatic postcard shot..

Adding a 677 FT skyscraper to Omaha’s skyline will really move it up a notch to another level..

Now if we could just get the 1416 Dodge parcel developed with a 350-400 footer …

Ciao..LiO…

Yeah, I think that’s my favorite too. With the string of lights on both sides - that’s a pretty cool shot, because the buildings are spaced out well.

Definitely so..

And on the other side, from the Post office on 10th St is a great skyline photo shot as well. Daytime and especially at night…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

I would echo all of these sentiments. The view from Abbott south will always be a favorite, especially after a long trip and finally getting home. The view south from 10th, or across the river from the Harrah's or Stir Cove is also excellent.