Official:High Speed Rail Discussion(Omaha to Lincoln)

thenewguy · Post by **thenewguy** » Tue May 12, 2009 2:13 am

i have always thought it was odd that Omaha, being a hub of the railroad industry, has suuuuch a lackluster approach to passenger transit by rail (in this case, nonexistent). You'd think that Omaha/Nebraska would want to get in on the bottom floor with the money being pushed for rail & efficient transit. Without Omaha (and Union Pacific), who knows where the company would be? It's been so integral in the development of the country, you'd think they'd want to build on that reputation (and in the process, dispell the cows & cornfield image people have

) It'd be like if Indianapolis denied their racing heritage. Or if Nashville had no museums or attractions that were dedicated to music. Kansas City/St. Louis with bbq, Philidelphia and the historic roots of our government, etc. Some things should just be synonymous with certain cities.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Tue May 12, 2009 3:52 am

Haha... You would think, wouldn't you.

Well, we've got the museums and monuments, it's the actual, functional service we lack. And I think the powers that be are content to leave it at that.

mrdwhsr · Post by **mrdwhsr** » Mon May 18, 2009 10:08 pm

I talked to a fellow from Des Moines who is active in lobbying for a street-car and for High-Speed Rail. There is definite interest in passenger service over the Iowa Interstate between Chicago and Council Bluffs. The plan is two trains daily in each direction and on-time service (unlike Amtrak's California Zepyhr). It will likely be done in stages. Phase 1 - Chicago to Quad Cities, Phase II - Chicago to Iowa City, Phase III Chicago to Des Moines. Phase IV Chicago to Council Bluffs. The Iowa Interstate is supportive of passenger rail. UP is another matter, making it likely that the train would terminate in Council Bluffs unless the UP can be convinced to allow service into Omaha -- they own the bridge.

I think the UP would get on board if there were any incentive, meaning help the UP move freight from the Fremont-Omaha-Council Bluffs-Missouri Valley line to the Fremont-Blair-Missouri Valley line. LA/LongBeach assisted the railroads with a project to grade separate a heavy freight route to increase capacity. Chicago has a plan called CREATE to allow railroads to get through Chicago faster. Maybe Omaha could see a use for a similar project to free up capacity on the UP Omaha-Council Bluffs bridge for passenger traffic? Maybe Omaha could swing a deal for Light-Rail to Bellevue and Waterloo on UP right-of-way as long as UP can get to local freight customers?

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:34 pm

Good god. I should hope something is worked out so that it can terminate in Omaha (extending further west eventually). What a waste if it were to terminate in CB as opposed to a transit hub in Downtown Omaha.

Post by **Brad** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:42 pm

mrdwhsr wrote:I think the UP would get on board if there were any incentive, meaning help the UP move freight from the Fremont-Omaha-Council Bluffs-Missouri Valley line to the Fremont-Blair-Missouri Valley line. LA/LongBeach assisted the railroads with a project to grade separate a heavy freight route to increase capacity. Chicago has a plan called CREATE to allow railroads to get through Chicago faster. Maybe Omaha could see a use for a similar project to free up capacity on the UP Omaha-Council Bluffs bridge for passenger traffic? Maybe Omaha could swing a deal for Light-Rail to Bellevue and Waterloo on UP right-of-way as long as UP can get to local freight customers?

UP already has acquired the land to add a second track through Blair. They want to move all the traffic they can from the Council Bluff Sub (omaha) to the Blair sub, which has a shorter distance between Fremont and Mo Valley. UP might be looking to make some money off the Omaha bridge in the future.

Bosco55David · Post by **Bosco55David** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:29 pm

Theoretically speaking, what kinda of cost would you guys estimate to take a round trip from Omaha to Lincoln on this high speed rail?

OmahaJaysCU · Post by **OmahaJaysCU** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:26 pm

I don't know, with a democrat being elected into the Mayors office, one would think that he would be more likely to back Obama's passenger rail plan. In that case, I would see him as being very supportive of Culver's plan. With Suttle who knows. It could go either way. He is probably going to be the most unpredictable mayor ever.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Wed May 20, 2009 4:38 pm

For reference, taking the Rail Runner from Downtown Albuquerque to Downtown Santa Fe, with a student discount, the total cost came to about $4.10, in addition to free bus fare with Rail Runner ticket.

Now THAT's affordable transportation.

See, the thing about public transit, and passenger rail, is that it has to be VASTLY more affordable and efficient than car travel to make it attractive to riders. As it is now, more often than not, transit and passenger rail are as expensive or MORE expensive than car travel, but less efficient and even CHALLENGING to use.

mrdwhsr · Post by **mrdwhsr** » Wed May 20, 2009 9:58 pm

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:See, the thing about public transit, and passenger rail, is that it has to be VASTLY more affordable and efficient than car travel to make it attractive to riders. As it is now, more often than not, transit and passenger rail are as expensive or MORE expensive than car travel, but less efficient and even CHALLENGING to use.

VASTLY more affordable only because it is a perception that transit and passenger rail are as expensive or MORE expensive than car travel. Most people believe they need to own a car even if they do use transit (and probably are correct in that belief, at least in Omaha). So the incremental cost of using the car instead of the public transit is only the cost of gas. Compare the cost of a system day pass on a transit system in any large metro (San Diego, Philadelphia) with the cost of a rental car + gas + parking at the hotel and transit is suddenly VASTLY more affordable.

I believe the perception that transit is as expensive or MORE expensive than the car (and less efficient) can be changed. If not, maybe we are spitting in the wind.

mrdwhsr · Post by **mrdwhsr** » Tue May 26, 2009 2:25 pm

A replacement for the Amtrak bus? Omaha would have an all-rail connection to the Southwest Chief (Chicago - Los Angeles) and St Louis via Kansas City. A few more connections (KC - Tulsa, Newton/Wichita KS - Oklahoma City, Omaha - Minneapols) and Amtrak might look like a real transportation network.

Amtrak KC to Omaha study alive ~ Larry Bauman

The Missouri House rejected the $336 million federal stimulus bill but hope remains for a chance at passenger rail service to St. Joseph. However, northwest Missouri saw some attention in a small stimulus bill the House endorsed. HB 21 uses about $2.4 million in federal funds with a proposal of $100,000 for a feasibility study of an Amtrak line between KC and Omaha. Rep. Dr. Rob Schaaf, R-St. Joseph, successfully amended a prior budget bill to include the Amtrak study money, but that bill is now defunct. The new bill, HB 21, from House Budget Chairman Allen Icet, included the $100,000 as part of a $11 million items for the development of high-speed intercity rail projects. Missouri stops would include St. Joseph, Weston and Parkville.
Apparently, planners lean toward the Nebraska side for the northern route as there is more population on that side than on the Iowa side. This portion is mostly conjecture at the present

mrdwhsr · Post by **mrdwhsr** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:41 pm

I see Iowa has applied for $109million in funds to rehab and improve railroads. I hope the fact that the listed projects are all freight rail lines and nothing appears to be included for passenger rail isn't an indication that Chicago to Omaha service isn't going to happen. Did Iowa seek the funds for the passenger service extension from the Quad Cities to Iowa City before today?

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/p ... p?id=21538

Several states, municipalities apply for TIGER grants by Tuesday's deadline

The Iowa DOT submitted applications seeking $109 million for rail projects and $440.2 million for highway projects. The rail requests included a $25 million TIGER grant to help BNSF Railway Co. fund a $124 million bridge project in Burlington, which calls for replacing approach spans on both sides of a new lift span; a $7 million grant to help the Cedar Rapids and Iowa City Railroad Co. finance the addition of two 9,800-foot tracks for unit trains at a soon-to-be-expanded Archer Daniels Midland facility; a $19.9 million grant to help Iowa Northern Railway Co. fund bridge and line rehabilitation projects between Cedar Rapids and Manly; a $24 million grant to help Union Pacific Railroad finance a wind belt transportation improvement project; and a $33 million grant to help UP fund the relocation of a crew change facility from Clinton to near Low Moor.

nebport5 · Post by **nebport5** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:03 am

http://www.iowanorthern.com/pdf/hawkeye ... _flyer.pdf

The university of Iowa rent cars from Iowa Northern Railroad, thus The Hawkeye Express. Yes I'm reviving the Husker train discussion that started this thread. Husker haters vomit silently to yourself and consider the following.

-$10 (cost to ride Hawkeye Express)

-5000 (approx. number of riders PER game during 2008 season)

Do the math here. How many more thousands would ride such a game day train to Lincoln? If this many Iowa fans will pay $10 for an eight minute ride, imagine the money a partnership with UNL and UP/Amtrack would generate. I can't believe this isn't already happening. More importantly, there is great merit here for advocating future light rail and or streetcars. What you husker haters fail to see is that the more people are comfortable with riding and getting out of their cars, the more likely the people of Omaha WILL support streetcars and light rail. Just as a downtown "demonstration line" would be a catalyst for rail transit, so would a husker line, where the infrastructure is already there. Who cares what convinces more citizens to support the cause?

mrdwhsr · Post by **mrdwhsr** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:41 pm

Thanks for the reminder Nebport5. My wife is a big little Husker fan (except when they play Florida State for some strange reason). We've thought about buying Holiday Bowl tickets. We will already be staying in the Wyndham Oceanside. It's a short three-block walk to the Oceanside Transit Center. For $14.00 each we would have a roundtrip ride on the Coaster, commuter rail to San Diego, an across the platform transfer to the San Diego Trolley for a ride to Qualcomm stadium and the same on the return trip.

USC fans can do an all rail trip from Pasadena: Los Angeles MTA Gold Line light rail to LA Union Terminal, Amtrak Surfliner to San Diego, San Diego Trolley to Qualcomm. (If Amtrak is full there's MetroLink to Oceanside and Coaster to San Diego).

I would highly recommend that Husker fans ride the San Diego Trolley to Qualcomm Stadium for the Holiday Bowl. There are plenty of hotel/motel rooms within a short walk of a trolley stop. You will get a bit of exercise, but not too much, and won't have the hassle of driving. (And if the Holiday Bowl is at another stadium, not Qualcomm, no problem. San Diego Trolley stops at all major league and SDSU stadiums.)

Unless you are on a tour bus, consider using San Diego's excellent light-rail! When you get back to Nebraska consider what street-car and light rail would do for Omaha in five-ten-twenty years. :D

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:53 pm

Unfortunately, nebport5, I agree with you.

Going to Husker games is a GREAT way to "expose" average, most likely suburban Nebraskans to the benefits of commuter rail (or just rail transportation in general).

I could see it becoming really popular and eventually being overtaken by an actual, regular commuter service that operates special tips for Husker games.

As much as I'm not into the Huskers or Husker sports, I think this is a GREAT angle.

I also think people have an image of a "BIG RED" train with Husker logos all over it. This would certainly not be the case, as the cars would most likely be rented from UP or Amtrak, et al. So, essentially to the average bystander, it would have the LOOK of a typical commuter rail service.

Omababe · Post by **Omababe** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:15 pm

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:Going to Husker games is a GREAT way to "expose" average, most likely suburban Nebraskans to the benefits of commuter rail (or just rail transportation in general).

I could see it becoming really popular and eventually being overtaken by an actual, regular commuter service that operates special tips for Husker games.

I've been suggesting this for years, decades, actually, and it always seems to be universally poo-poo'ed when I bring it up.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:32 pm

*Reposted from the "Streetcar" discussion. All related discussion pertaining to weather and transit can be posted THERE so the discussion isn't all over the place.

In the event of a snow emergency like we're experiencing right now, I can't help but see the opportunity to really talk up the benefits of streetcars and light rail.

Public transit in Omaha was CRIPPLED yesterday because buses have the same flaws as personal automobiles when it comes to getting around in the snow.

Buses only ran between 3:00 and 6:00 p.m. yesterday. I was waiting for a bus on St. Mary's Ave during that time. Understandably, they were running behind schedule, but I was waiting for a bus for more than 45 minutes. Luckily, I planned ahead and was properly dressed. When a bus DID finally show up, it was one that had turned around prematurely (before getting Downtown) to head back west because there were THREE 11 buses stacked up one after the other headed into Downtown.

With streetcars, and even more so with light rail (since it's more likely to be on dedicated right of way), snow and blizzard conditions are no obstacle.

I think rail transportation advocates should really play up the all-weather advantages of streetcars, light rail, and commuter rail. I think that angle would ring true with a lot of people in this area of the country.

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:17 pm

ok, slightly off topic since this isn't between omaha and lincoln, but...really cool.

Daily Mail wrote:Days after thousands of passengers were left stranded when Eurostar services were cancelled, China's new system connects the modern cities of Guangzhou and Wuhan at an average speed of 217mph - and it took just four years to build.

The super-high-speed train reduces the 664-mile journey to just a three-hour ride and cuts the previous journey time by more than seven-and-a-half hours, the official Xinhua news agency said

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... years.html

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:43 pm

A great article from the Associated Press in today's Omaha World-Herald about Japan joining the "race" of international high-speed train manufacturers who want to cash in on US rail expansion.

This is ACTUALLY GOING TO START HAPPENING. EXCITING!!!

http://www.omaha.com/article/20091228/MONEY/712289969

President Barack Obama’s stimulus package included an $8 billion provision for high-speed trains, and some say eventually $600 billion will be needed for a nationwide network.

A high-speed network would drastically cut U.S. train times. The Washington-to-New York route would drop from 2½ hours to about 70 minutes, according to Kasai. That would create a viable alternative to planes and cars, cutting down on traffic and depositing travelers at stations that are often in the city center.

JR Central, one of the operators created when Japan privatized its railways in 1987, is leading the charge in the U.S. but also is taking a risky winner-takes-all approach. The company is pitching a total package covering everything from train cars to signals to maintenance machinery and even employee instruction — even though many in the industry prefer to rely on a variety of suppliers.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:50 pm

What is the point of having a train from Omaha to Lincoln? What does this put within reach of Omahans that's in Lincoln that's not in Lincoln? I know this is just talk but I think if more people are more realistic about implementing any sort of rail transit you don't start at the end and work backwards. As of yet there isn't even a push to fix buses in Omaha so why waste time fantasizing over something that is so far out.

Post by **Brad** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:55 pm

I hope that eventually Iowa gets their Omaha to Chicago train and then Nebraska gets an Omaha to Denver train.

S33 · Post by **S33** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:00 pm

DTO Luv wrote:What is the point of having a train from Omaha to Lincoln? What does this put within reach of Omahans that's in Lincoln that's not in Lincoln? I know this is just talk but I think if more people are more realistic about implementing any sort of rail transit you don't start at the end and work backwards. As of yet there isn't even a push to fix buses in Omaha so why waste time fantasizing over something that is so far out.

Exactly. There really isn't that many people commuting on a daily basis. We're not talking Sacramento - Stockton - San Jose - Oakland - San Francisco here.

Let's say they build it, then what? People reach the other city and walk the rest of the way?

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:25 pm

It goes without saying that there needs to be better public transportation in both cities, but thousands upon thousands of people travel between Omaha and Lincoln each day. People may be going to Omaha to shop, fly out of Eppley, see concerts, etc., and Lincoln draws many because of the Capitol and UNL. This is not even counting business commuters.

I wonder what the statistics are for I-80 and HWY 6 as far as what percentage is exclusively traveling between Lincoln and Omaha or points in between. A lot.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:45 pm

A lot but not as much as you would think. I saw the stats once and they were much lower than I thought. A lot of people yes but I think it's putting the cart before the horse. It will be fun to sit here and talk about it like we do everything else but until someone in a position to really work towards better (any) public transit options this is the last stage. Also with Lincoln being as close as it is I don't think it would really make much sense to build a train out to there.

I'm really not trying to shi+ on this but if anyone is serious about getting rail transit of anykind here then try to be effective about it. It could be decades before a train between Omaha and lincoln is even close to being viable to have intercity rail transit.

S33 · Post by **S33** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:48 pm

I don't think it's much more than any other 4 lane interstate around the country and apparently not enough of a percentage to combine the metros either.

I'm all for rail transport, but in this instance, start in the cities. I guess it will also depend on what kind of funding can be acquired and as to what the Feds deem it has to be used for.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:31 am

That's because it has to be a certain PERCENTAGE of the county population, and Lancaster and Douglas are both very populated counties.

I would be reasonably satisfied if there were a couple more Amtrak trains at decent hours of the day that one could REASONABLY use to go back and forth between the two cities in a day.

In the meantime, I'm surprised that there aren't locally owned and operated bus lines serving the region. It could provide key morning/evening rush hour and midday service between the two centers.

the1wags · Post by **the1wags** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:25 pm

I'll agree that while this should happen, it only makes sense for it to be a latter stage of implementation. Streetcars first, then light rail, west O commuter rail, then regional commuter (Lincoln, maybe Fremont).

Post by **Brad** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:57 pm

They show high speed rail in the new Lincoln Arena video in the Lincoln section.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:00 pm

I was wondering if the rail line was to remain active, so that one day it could be used for passenger rail. Will Amtrak still come through there? I know the plan mentioned moving the Amtrak station, but where? And what will happen with the Lincoln Depot building?

Post by **Brad** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:24 pm

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:I was wondering if the rail line was to remain active, so that one day it could be used for passenger rail. Will Amtrak still come through there? I know the plan mentioned moving the Amtrak station, but where? And what will happen with the Lincoln Depot building?

I would assume Amtrak would still go through there. That's the BNSF main line. Don't count on Amtrak doing a game day train. There was a company that wanted to start a new ski train in Denver and Amtrak basically gave them the bird.

Post by **Brad** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:09 pm

Here is the photo of the Football Special I was talking about

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:30 pm

Awesome! Thanks, Brad.

I didn't realize it was that recent. This is something that many Husker fans should still remember.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:24 am

Well then I guess this would be ONE form of tailgating that I support :;): .

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:06 pm

More thoughts on the matter...decent comments from both sides.

Dusty Vaughan, the Unicameral attorney wrote:...high-speed rail would be too much for the state to deal with right now."We have a six-lane interstate," he said. "Our focus is on vehicular transportation, not mass public transportation."

http://newsnetnebraska.org/component/co ... -nebraska-

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:58 pm

Dusty Vaughan, the Unicameral attorney wrote:"Our focus is on vehicular transportation, not mass public transportation."

While I couldn't disagree more with his stance, he does have this right. Unfortunately, that is as true a statement as there ever was.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:20 pm

I just got the chance to read the article posted by Tuna above.

It actually doesn't bother me... and I think it really misses the point. I don't think we need to be talking about "high speed" rail between Omaha and Lincoln (I think that should be removed from the thread title, too... the "Omaha to Lincoln" part).

Commuter Rail or even Light Rail with multiple daily departures between Omaha and Lincoln is all that is needed at this time. It doesn't need to travel 120 mph. I think 65 to 70 mph would be just fine. There just needs to be the option. If I can manage to not have a car, I'd be fine that it would take probably a little more than an hour to get from Lincoln to Omaha.

What's important, is that high-speed rail extend to Omaha from Chicago. Then, having these meaningful regional connections will further feed the high-speed rail corridor to Chicago and make Omaha a regional hub.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:47 pm

It also really annoys me that people in positions of leadership regarding transportation in our state can sit there and say that we don't have the population numbers to make it feasible.

The Nebraska Department of Roads' study also found that the populations of Omaha and Lincoln are still too small to generate enough ridership to make high-speed rail feasible.
"There's not enough people commuting between Lincoln and Omaha for it to happen now," Vaughan said. "It will take some years for the population to grow up, and maybe Lincoln and Omaha will grow a little closer together."

There are over 1 million people living in the two metros, and we don't have enough people? That is absolute malarkey!

What I think they mean to say, is that too much of the population are ignorant to the issues at hand, or that too much of the population are still having a love affair with their car and couldn't care less about transportation equality for their fellow man.

How is it that when I was living in a town of 200,000 in France, it had rail connections to nearly any town of over 10,000 people within a 30 mile radius? Not to mention high speed connections to Paris, Lyon, and Geneva.

In Omaha and Lincoln's case, population doesn't even enter into it, and anyone who tells you it does has their hands in the auto-industry pie.

It's paradigm, not population, that needs to see change.

Edagger · Post by **Edagger** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:17 pm

Amtrak runs between Lincoln and Omaha and not many people use it. I know it is not at a convenient time.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:03 pm

Edagger wrote:Amtrak runs between Lincoln and Omaha and not many people use it. I know it is not at a convenient time.

Are you serious? There is absolutely no comparison between California Zephyr ridership between Omaha and Lincoln, which offers one way service in each direction each day at ridiculous times at ridiculous rates and is never on time, and what ridership on commuter rail between the two cities would be.

Post by **nebugeater** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:09 pm

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:
Edagger wrote:Amtrak runs between Lincoln and Omaha and not many people use it. I know it is not at a convenient time.
Are you serious? There is absolutely no comparison between California Zephyr ridership between Omaha and Lincoln, which offers one way service in each direction each day at ridiculous times at ridiculous rates and is never on time, and what ridership on commuter rail between the two cities would be.

Of course the poster was serious. What about the post was not factual?

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:15 pm

"Are you serious" is a figure of speech. I was trying to express my extreme disbelief that someone would make such a comparison in seriousness.