Casey's Center (Formerly Wells Fargo Arena)

[omahapropertymanager]

Here's an article from the OWH about the Wells Fargo Arena in Des Moines http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=1638&u_sid=1457519

[Omaha Cowboy]

And I thought the W-H only printed no-so-rosey arena articles relating specifically to Omaha..

Welcome to the club Des Moines..You're in elite company ..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[loyalomahan]

That's an Associated Press story dude... probably written by a Register reporter.

You have to envy this... "Construction costs will be paid off mainly by gambling profits from Prairie Meadows Racetrack and Casino in Altoona."

One negative thing though, didn't Green Day sell out in Omaha pretty quickly? I can't believe it hasn't sold out yet for the WFA?

[DMRyan]

We've been discussing the negative press about the Iowa Events Center on the Des Moines site recentely. The DSM Register went out of their way to conjure up negative images of apathy for the new arena, to interviewing people who think it'll fail and become a boondoggle. Sound familiar Omaha? I recall reading about these chicken little stories with the Qwest Center back in 2003, and now look at what has happened with the Qwest. Can anyone name one new downtown arena in any small to midsized city that can actually be called a failure?

Even on the local news, the public reaction has been more favorable, but people are complaining about a lack of parking nearby because they're forced to walk to city blocks to park in a garage that's connected to the arena by skywalk.

[Omaha Cowboy]

'That's an Associated Press story dude... probably written by a Register reporter'..

I undestand that loyalomahan..It was however PRINTED in (never stated it was written by) the W-H as I aluded to in my first post..The fact that it was SEEN in the W-H, a publication known for it's gloom and doom articles before, during and even shortly after the construction of the Qwest Center was the point of my post..

FYI..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Ingersoll1978]

That article wasn't very nice.

Everyone (Yes...including DTO... ) is welcome to attend absolutedsm.com's 1st Annual Forum Meet to check out the Wells Fargo Arena.

Here's the iternary:

Saturday, August 6th

9:30 AM
Meet at Java Joe's (on 4th St. Downtown) for coffee, etc.

-chat, walk along Court Avenue during the Farmer's Market, walk to 1st stop on the meet

10:30 AM
Iowa Events Center Tour
-Wells Fargo Arena (30-45 minutes)
-Hy-Vee Hall (10-15 minutes)

11:30 AM
Brief walking tour of north/central downtown, constuction project briefing

12:30 PM
Lunch downtown at Centro

~2:00 PM
Tour of 111 City Lofts

2:45 PM--meet up at Raccoon River for drinks, talking etc.

If you wish to attend...please visit this link and let us know!

http://www.absolutedsm.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=992

[DTO Luv]

I was just planning on coming anyway.

And Finally.... a Wells Fargo thread that I didn't start.

Here's what I think and let me know it you're suprised.

I don't think WFA will be as big of a success as the Qwest Center. Here's why.

1. They don't have the amenities/activities/hotels near the arena like the Q does. Hence them getting a Womens NCAA tournament and not the mens. I think the NCAA was drawn to the newness of WFA but knows better than to put the mens events here.

2. Des Moines is still a smaller city. Even though it's moving up, it's moving up to where Omaha used to be years ago. We're going to be the next Austins, Nashvilles, and Lousivilles while DM is going to probably be what Omaha was to the region for years.

3. Being realistic I think it will be hard to draw conventions to IOWA (it has been harder here to for conventions than concerts). DM will probably ahve lots of local and regional conventions (just like us) but that will be the majority of it.

4. Green Day not selling out (like it did in Omaha and KC) will show that unless it is a huge name (Sir Paul...) DM won't support less certain drawing acts. And come on how do you not sell out Green Day? I couldn't tell you how many poser faux American Idiots I saw at the one here. Most people probably never heard of Dookie or Nimrod and would be shocked to find out what Longview's about.

5. I don't know what affect KC has on DM ( I would think Mpls would be your nest closest 'big' city) but 3 new arenas in the area will make for strong competition with DM most likely coming up on the short end of the stick.

There I've said it. I don't think the Wells Fargo Arena will be doing as good as the Qwest Center 2-3 years from now.

Also ours is still overall bigger. Their max now is 16,980 and ours is 17,000 (I know I'm the only person who cares about those 20 seats). Those are both center stage concerts no suites added. (If you care to know we'd still be bigger) I don't have time now to go DTO all over this and throw up numbers but I'll be back later.

[DMRyan]

[eomaha]

Des Moines is a smaller metro... but Iowa is a bigger state. Don't underestimate Des Moines' ability to draw it's state residents... unlike rural Nebraskans and Omaha... Iowans throughout the state (as best as I can tell anyway) love Des Moines.

I predict the Qwest Center, Wells Fargo Arena, and Sprint Center will all have success.

[Big E]

Multiple point post:

1. HOLY |expletive| is that the mother of all exploding head smileys.

2. Did "DTO" just get "verbed"?

3. Des Moines' relationship with the rest of its state being different from Omaha's relationship with the rest of its state has less to do with population than it does with geography. Des Moines is less than 3 hours from 95% of the state by car (source: pulled from my |expletive|, but you get my point), while Omaha is, in some cases 8+ hours.

Now, back to the roof and my martini.

-Big E

[Ingersoll1978]

We'll just have to wait and see how it plays out. The IEC currently has over 50 events scheduled in its first year. Remember the excitement for that Mary Kay convention?

Also, Green Day has played out the region already (including Omaha, KC, Cedar Rapids, Minneapolis, Moline, and St. Paul). I wouldn't really expect it to sell out. I don't that is a good measurement to use (even though I would like to see it sell out). Green Day is almost as bad as Cher (I have paid to see that show 4 times).

I also don't think most Des Moines people measure their city up against Omaha in most cases. The influence isn't there like it is for KC and Minneapolis.

Anyways...I'm sure both the Qwest Center, Wells Fargo Arena, and the Sprint Center will do fine. They are far enough away and with different demographics to do well in their own metros (the only market Des Moines and Omaha really share is Western Iowa---and that pretty much is divided by US HWY 71).

[Omaha Cowboy]

Ingersoll 1978 posted:

'I also don't think most Des Moines people measure their city up against Omaha in most cases.'..

Now this I COMPLETELY disagree with..I think in 'most cases' Des Moines citizens and city leaders certainly do (as does the DM Register)..

Now back to the big explosion..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[OmahaDevelopmentMan]

Man, isn't it great how we can have a nice thread about Des Moines without having an Omaha vs Des Moines pissing match....

[DMRyan]

^

I haven't given my official reply to this thread yet...

[CountOfMC]

Des Moines is a smaller metro... but Iowa is a bigger state. Don't underestimate Des Moines' ability to draw it's state residents... unlike rural Nebraskans and Omaha... Iowans throughout the state (as best as I can tell anyway) love Des Moines.

Doing a little deductive reasoning here... if there's 400,000-500,000 people in Western Iowa, I'd imagine most travel to Omaha over Des Moines. Moreover, the Eastern side of Iowa is prone to trek to Chicago. What does this mean? Des Moines' drawing power is no greater than Omaha's in my opinion... and perhaps less.

[Ingersoll1978]

I guess you'd have to live in Des Moines to see Omaha's influences. The only thing I can really think of that Omaha is talked about (in the Register as well) in is with the arenas. Same with the Old Market and the zoo in the travel section.

I've lived in Omaha, Lincoln, and Des Moines. They are all very different types of cities with different issues. Personally, I think Des Moines has a lot more in common (and influences) with Minneapolis than any other city surrounding it, of course Des Moines being much smaller.

Who would you think Omaha's big brother is? Probably KC I would assume.

[CountOfMC]

I would never call KC our big brother, though we do have a lot of similarities. I think we mimic more of a mini St. Louis.

[Finn]

Interesting discussion. When I worked in Des Moines, I did not see this "Omaha influence." I think there may be some as Omaha is a larger metro area near Des Moines. However, Des Moines is geographically central in the state (with a much larger state population), is the capitol and has a more centric feel to its downtown (buildings and employment). Thus, I feel Des Moines wields a broader influence over the entire state as compared to Omaha (Omaha vs. Western NE mentality).

I think KC is probably our bigger brother, as it is close and similar in many ways. I started college in St. Louis and never considered it similar to Omaha. However, as Count mentioned, there are similarities there as well. Both are large cities on a state border where affluent suburbs have spread westward from the CBD (leaving a decaying downtown). Meanwhile, the smaller city across the border lacked the ability to capture growth. The advantage that we have over St. Louis is annexation. Thus, while inner St. Louis has struggled for years, Omaha's downtown is undergoing a renaissance as the tax base is shared.

[DMRyan]

Maybe I'm reading into things differently than other people, but when I hear the word influence, I think of the sphere of influence that larger cities have over a region of smaller cities. Shopping, sports, culture, weekend trips, business, media, etc. I hate to deflate the Omaha sails, but Omaha doesn't have this sphere of influence over Des Moines, and Central Iowa. It's a nice mid-sized city with some great tourist attractions, and only two hours down the road. Nothing more, nothing less to 99% of Des Moinians' with no Nebraska ties.

And before anyone gets huffy about that, consider the fact that at least having significant tourist attractions like the zoo and Old Market is a step above what DSM currently has/had, although I really do think DSM is getting more into the fray of things lately.

For Des Moines, it's a cross between Minneapolis and KC being our big city that we are seperated in between. All of Iowa, if not the entire midwest swings around Chicago in one way or another...this is especially evident in Eastern Iowa.

[DMRyan]

Also, I think a lot of Des Moines to Omaha comparisons IS due to the fact that with geographic location and somewhat comparitive economies (both white collar cities) pit our cities as automatic rivals. This is what I've been saying for years now.

I've since learned that Omaha offers a lot of advantages that DSM wouldn't necessarily beat because it's a smaller city, and I'm not saying that our cities are 100% on the same level, but dammit you're blind if you can't see that we're in frequent competition.

[Omaha Cowboy]

That all said, I still believe Des Moines civic leaders/their newspaper/and a goodly number of their citizens use Omaha as the city they must 'measure up to'..Not KCMO or Minneapolis..And why would they not?..Omaha while a 'generally larger' metro than Des Moines (about a 300,000 population difference) would be a city Des Moines can realistically look up to..Minneapolis and KCMO are much larger metros than DSM and thus does not give as realistic a measuring stick IMO..

In terms of geographical location..I've made this argument in the past..I feel Omaha is more strategically located smack dab on the boarder of NE/IA to draw from an even more significant population base..central Iowa (incuding Des Moines) through Central Nebraska (inckuding the Tri cities area)..Thus I have never bought into the 'Iowa has a bigger state pop, thus has more people to draw from' point of view (although there is some validity to outstate Nebraska's contempt for Omaha argument)..Omaha is located in an advantage position to draw from both..And does..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[MrTwister]

I've lived in Des Moines for 14 years and in Iowa for 37 (mostly in North Iowa where we paid more attention to Minneapolis than we did Des Moines.) I can honestly say that no one I know or associate with in all that time, ever wished we could be like Omaha.

Of all the projects in Des Moines, I see very little influence from Omaha, but I see plenty of influence from Kansas City and Minneapolis. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[guy4omaha]

Omaha (other than the first three days of my life) is my birthplace and my home. It is also the place I returned home to after living in Iowa for 10 years. Omaha is my baby, my pride and my joy.

However, Des Moines and central Iowa do not look up to Omaha. Only a portion of the population of the western 2 tiers of counties in Iowa flirt with the idea.

Des Moines is recognized nationally in the communication industry as a larger TV market for generating advertising dollars for example. You'll be charged more to advertise on TV in Des Moines than in Omaha.

Look at the Iowa State Fair vs Nebraska's. Not only is the Iowa State Fair in the geographic center of the state it is also in the population center. Central Iowa is more populous as a whole than eastern Nebraska/western Iowa. Try putting our state fair in Kearney and the results would be nowhere near the same. An arena in central Iowa has some built in advantages over Omaha's much the same way Iowa's state fair clobbers ours.

Then you have the center of state government phenomenon going for Des Moines. The state of Iowa has a lot of synergy that focuses in the central part of the state. And a more populous one at that.

I love Omaha and when push comes to shove, I cheer for it over Des Moines. However, I think that if you put an identical or nearly as well equipped Qwest Center in Des Moines, it would be more successful than an Omaha one. Don't know all the details on the WFA, but it will be plenty successful enough. It will not be less successful than the Qwest Center.

While I hope I am wrong, I suspect that in the long run Des Moines will be the larger "METRO" of our two cities. That is, unless we do get a Lincoln/Omaha "one metro" mojo thing going. But central Iowa will still be hard to beat in the long run.

[CountOfMC]

I don't know how much Des Moines looks up to Omaha. All throughout college in Des Moines, I don't think many people realized there was a real city 2 hours away. Most were familiar with the name, but any sort of trips were usually made to MPLS or the Windy City. At the same time, I think Des Moines sorta keeps a secret eye on Omaha's doings. And more so now as Omaha, in my opinion, continues to spread the gap in appeal and mass numbers. It's just my hunch that we're on the cusp of some major announcements in the next few years that will once again transform our downtown and resonate throughout the media outlets with some sick national coverage. Maybe I'm hyping this up too much, but I don't think anyone fully realizes what the pedestrian bridge/RFP condos, and a whole slew of potential other towers (let's not forget the North DT district) is gonna do for us. We're about to knock people's socks off.

Just like Bobby Abreu did in the Homerun Derby, I think we're about to hit the 'big fly.'

[DMRyan]

I agree with CountMC, and have seen first hand (especially over the past few years) a lot of articles in the Register noting the good things that have been going on in Omaha. If a city does something good, it's going to get press in the region, and Omaha has done a lot of good recently.

I don't know if Omaha is spreading the appeal or size gap any quicker than DSM, since DSM has a very respectable boom of its own going on, and is growing a little quicker, but I see your point. Do look for more press on Des Moines now that several of our big, big projects are wrapping up.

This is difficult to describe, but I think that DSM does admire a lot of things that Omaha is doing/has done for itself, but looks past Omaha (size wise) as far as what it wants to be someday. Locally, I've seen credit given to the Old Market, the Zoo, the music scene, and the riverfront transformation. Because DSM has a lot of similar projects on the burner, and because Omaha had completed many of these projects first, I think you see some movers and shakers in DSM taking note of all this, wanting the same success for our city. I think all this development both of our cities are seeing will be studied, sometimes emulated, other times envied, to determine what's been successful and what hasn't.

****
Back to the actual topic, here's my take on the arena situation, most of which has been repeated on the DSM site. Omaha has the larger population market, opened the doors on their arena first, and has an excellent track record thus far. That will be stiff competition to hold a candle to. The arena in Des Moines just opened its doors yesterday, so we're really going to have to give this some time to see how a larger management company functions in DSM, if the fan support will be there in DSM, and if major concert tours frequently pass up one venue for another.

For now, since the two venues are so similar, it's going to take more than bricks and mortar to differentiate the two. The only thing I can really give the DSM facility is location. Not the actual arena site, but the fact that DSM is at the cross roads of two major interstates, is smack dab in between Minneapolis and KC, and is closer to larger population centers. It's been proven that people will drive about 2-3 hours for a good concert. Eastern Nebraska may have more people than central Iowa, but to the east of DSM lies 1.5 million Iowans. This is trivial stuff though because Omaha is only another two hours away.

My consensus at this point is that it will be tough to overcome the early success of the Qwest Center, but it's far too early to be sure. Anything else is nothing more than predictions coming out of our |expletive|.

[DMRyan]

^
And with that lenghty chapter of my book written, I want to show everyone the only possible way I can think of Wells Fargo Arena ever expanding.

Take a look at the far end of this picture, in the bar/restaurant area with the windows. From what I've heard (vaguely), there exists the possibility to continue the upper bowl of seating above this. Outside of being a size queen and wanting more seats, I can honestly say that I don't want this feature hindered. I think I like the natural light coming in from the windows, and the openess of having a restaurant in this portion of the arena. Also, you can see one of the design flaws of WFA as well. Those "super columns" on the corners were needed because the arena was crammed between two streets and for some support/engineering reason that I couldn't explain, the columns were required. There are several seats beyond columns on the opposite side of the arena that will have views partially blocked as a result of this.




Although I'd like it to be, my opinon isn't the be-all, end-all to DSM development, but I cannot see a seating expansion realistically happening.

[Ingersoll1978]

So anyone from this forum coming to our meet in Des Moines?

***I've already said my piece...I don't need to continue to repeat myself...

[eomaha]

Who cares, for all intents and purposes these facilities will be identical... seat expansion or not (ie for 90+% of the events hosted in either... there will be a ton of empty seats).

In the end, I'm sure... once again, that both of these facilities will continue to have/have great success... even after KC's arena comes online.

[OmahaDevelopmentMan]

Wow the WFC is looking wonderful! I hope I can get a chance to check it out one day.

[eomaha]

Yeah look... not only does their 'ribbon' display go 360 around the arena... but they've got one of those cool rotating cylinder displays at the bottom on their scoreboard (I wonder if we can 'upgrade' to one of those?)

[Omaha Cowboy]

Nice pic of WFA..

Looks very nice!..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Omaha Cowboy]

Guy4Omaha posted:

'While I hope I am wrong, I suspect that in the long run Des Moines will be the larger "METRO" of our two cities.'..

While I happen to disagree with the body of your post here (but respect your opinion at the same time)..The above gave me quite a chuckle..Factually, Des Moines 2004 metro population estimate of 511,000 is not even as large as Omaha's metro population in 1970 of 542,000..Basically, Des Moines population wise is where Omaha was 35 years ago..Des Moines would have to grow 57% to reach Omahas's current metro population without Omaha growing at all..Translated: Des Moines metro population will most likely NEVER become larger than Omaha..REALLY..

As it relates to TV market size..The numbers are VERY misleading..Des Mojnes carries the entire central Iowa area including the Ames, IA MSA..Omaha basically carries it's metro plus a few surrounding counties in NE/IA....But does NOT include Lincoln (a mere 50 miles away)..Which when I lived in Lincoln for 4 years of college, most TV's I saw were tuned to Omaha stations..If you Include Lincoln, the Omaha TV market expands into the top 50 (about market #47)..Because of this Nielsen limitation, Omaha currently ranks in at market #75 and DSM #73..Indentical....But this is not reality IMO (reality for Nielsen maybe)..

But oh well..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Omaha Cowboy]

Edit..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[guy4omaha]

[quote="Omaha Cowboy"]Guy4Omaha posted:

'While I hope I am wrong, I suspect that in the long run Des Moines will be the larger "METRO" of our two cities.'..

While I happen to disagree with the body of your post here (but respect your opinion at the same time)..The above gave me quite a chuckle..Factually, Des Moines 2004 metro population estimate of 511,000 is not even as large as Omaha's metro population in 1970 of 542,000..Basically, Des Moines population wise is where Omaha was 35 years ago..Des Moines would have to grow 57% to reach Omahas's current metro population without Omaha growing at all..Translated: Des Moines metro population will most likely NEVER become larger than Omaha..REALLY..

As it relates to TV market size..The numbers are VERY misleading..Des Mojnes carries the entire central Iowa area including the Ames, IA MSA..Omaha basically carries it's metro plus a few surrounding counties in NE/IA....But does NOT include Lincoln (a mere 50 miles away)..Which when I lived in Lincoln for 4 years of college, most TV's I saw were tuned to Omaha stations..If you Include Lincoln, the Omaha TV market expands into the top 50 (about market #47)..Because of this Nielsen limitation, Omaha currently ranks in at market #75 and DSM #73..Indentical....But this is not reality IMO (reality for Nielsen maybe)..


Well I respect your opinion as well. And when I state mine, a lot of the time it is to stir the pot of thought. I am not necessarily married to what I type either.

Regarding which metro becomes the larger in the long run, I am really referring to the long run, like 50 years or more. Perhaps I could have worded this as "I wouldn't be surprised if the Des Moines Metro is eventually the larger of the two.

Regarding the TV market thing, I was thinking of statistics that surprised me from the mid-90s where Omaha was somewhere in the 70s and Des Moines was several places ahead in the 60s. So it looks like Omaha is closing the gap.

Bottom line though for me is that Des Moines and Central Iowa have some real power and draw of their own. When some of us on the forum talk about Des Moines as if it has no comparision to Omaha, they are not facing up to the facts that both metros are strong growing ones and I would suggest have far more similarities in a positive way than not.

[Finn]

Des Moines also has a more centric CBD - they have a larger concentration of jobs (%) in the CBD than Omaha (as many Omaha jobs continue to expand westward). This is part of the reason that Des Moines has such an impressive skyline for a city of its size. I think this is important as we see our downtown renaissance underway because it underlines the importance of regional development, infill development and development near the CBD and radiating from it (including Council Bluffs).

[Omaha Cowboy]

No question Guy4Omaha..That while Omaha is a generally larger metro than Des Moines, I would not consider Omaha 'much larger' than Des Moines (Omaha would have to be at least twice the size of DSM in metro pop before I'd say that)..Therefore Omaha and Des Moines share far more similarities than differences and are comparable..

From a metro population standpoint, Omaha has always been a larger metro than Des Moines and even 50 or more years from now that is HIGHLY unlikely to change (dare I say impossible )..Omaha is growing at a healthy 12% clip and if the rate between 2003 to 2004 is any indication, Omaha's rate may end up at 15 to 16% by the end of the decade which Des Moines seems to be at now..Even at these percentages, Omaha has added more population to is's metro than Des Moines so far this decade..Just as Omaha did last decade..If the current growth trends continue, Omaha will continue to steadily widen it's population size difference over DSM..The metro population difference is widening not closing..

I appreciate your response ..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Omaha Cowboy]

Des Moines also has a more centric CBD - they have a larger concentration of jobs (%) in the CBD than Omaha (as many Omaha jobs continue to expand westward). This is part of the reason that Des Moines has such an impressive skyline for a city of its size. I think this is important as we see our downtown renaissance underway because it underlines the importance of regional development, infill development and development near the CBD and radiating from it (including Council Bluffs).

I agree 100% with you Finn ..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[DMRyan]

If the current growth trends continue, Omaha will continue to steadily widen it's population size difference over DSM..The metro population difference is widening not closing..

Count me in the category of someone who doesn't foresee DSM's metro population ever passing Omahas. However, it's simple math to see that when one city is growing at a faster percentage, over time, it can catch up in population numbers, despite one city showing a higher numeric increase at the present time. Again, I don't see this happening, not even 50 years down the road. There was a 4% growth rate difference between two cities that are more than 300,000 people apart in population. What is so tough about population projections is assuming that the rate of growth will be sustained over the years. You can't project things like that.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Yeah..Basically metro Omaha would have to stop growing PERIOD for 30 years (a 0% growth rate for 30 years) while over the same time, metro DSM grows at a 19.1% clip over those same 30 years to reach Omaha's current metro population..Obviously this wont happen..

But clearly, population projections some 50 years from the present are purely speculative..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace