Greg S wrote:I really like what Lincoln has done outside Pinnacle, and KC outside Sprint Center. Our "development" around TD and the Clink is so spread out and does not seem to be a well coordinated effort. I still wish we would have involved Cordish.
I have hopes for Shamrock and the entertainment area. Hoping for a cross between P and L and the Cube. Love both areas, would like to see something comparable.
Greg
Also important to note that neither Lincoln nor Kansas City have an area like the Old Market 5 blocks away. No doubt that holds North Downtown back some because there are already tons of restaurants and bars there.
For KC you could though point out they have the burgeoning Crossroads District, the Crown Center area, the Plaza and especially Westport in the general area. I spent a few days down there during the World Series and was pleasantly surprised how much Westport has bounced back. It had some issues several years ago and was also believed to be hurt by the arrival or Power and Light. When I was there I was amazed how it seems either at or close to 100% full and how lively it was again.
Greg S wrote:I really like what Lincoln has done outside Pinnacle, and KC outside Sprint Center. Our "development" around TD and the Clink is so spread out and does not seem to be a well coordinated effort. I still wish we would have involved Cordish.
I have hopes for Shamrock and the entertainment area. Hoping for a cross between P and L and the Cube. Love both areas, would like to see something comparable.
Greg
Also important to note that neither Lincoln nor Kansas City have an area like the Old Market 5 blocks away. No doubt that holds North Downtown back some because there are already tons of restaurants and bars there.
For KC you could though point out they have the burgeoning Crossroads District, the Crown Center area, the Plaza and especially Westport in the general area. I spent a few days down there during the World Series and was pleasantly surprised how much Westport has bounced back. It had some issues several years ago and was also believed to be hurt by the arrival or Power and Light. When I was there I was amazed how it seems either at or close to 100% full and how lively it was again.
Greg
Plus Lincoln has a bigger bar district than Omaha on DT O street as well as has the haymarket and is much smaller than Omaha. Whether people want to admit it or not Omaha just royally messed up the area around the arena, simple as that.
I would agree on O St. I'm not writing Omaha off, they were starting from scratch where PBA went into an established area (though it has now been totally transformed). It's just been a much slower process here and still has a ways to go.
Look at the Mutual project and Aksarben Village in Omaha, the Haymarket in Lincoln, P&L in KC and here in Detroit take a look at what's near Ford Field & Comerica Park as well as the proposed Arena District. They are all great ways of place-making around an arena. Also Columbus, Ohio.
To see a completely lost area around an arena take a look at Omaha. The hotels on Cuming would fit well on West Dodge. Waaaaay too much surface parking and zero planning. Does Omaha not have ONE developer or politician with vision?
The surprising one is Des Moines. There really isn't anything immediately near the Iowa Events Center. It's not close to downtown, Court Avenue or the East Village. I know the walk isn't all that far but I would expect that someone would have done something creative across the street, a restaurant, a bar, something. Makes Omaha's look good...not great at all but good.
RNcyanide wrote:I feel like we should continue the controlled burn on North Downtown in the North Downtown thread.
I agree. With regard to the Shamrock/District, if it does indeed happen and in the proposed form it will be a great connector between the arena area and the rest of downtown. If it does include housing and a hotel that makes it more of a 24/7 area...extremely important to the growth of downtown as a whole and the east side of downtown especially.
Bob from Omaha wrote:
The surprising one is Des Moines. There really isn't anything immediately near the Iowa Events Center. It's not close to downtown, Court Avenue or the East Village. I know the walk isn't all that far but I would expect that someone would have done something creative across the street, a restaurant, a bar, something. Makes Omaha's look good...not great at all but good.
RNcyanide wrote:I feel like we should continue the controlled burn on North Downtown in the North Downtown thread.
Like it or not, I think this project IS North Downtown. When it Fails, so might the North Downtown experiment.
Can't help but wonder what this forum would be like if they put the Arena near or in the old market. Probably a lot less lamenting over other cities who put their arenas in established districts.
RNcyanide wrote:I feel like we should continue the controlled burn on North Downtown in the North Downtown thread.
Like it or not, I think this project IS North Downtown. When it Fails, so might the North Downtown experiment.
Can't help but wonder what this forum would be like if they put the Arena near or in the old market. Probably a lot less lamenting over other cities who put their arenas in established districts.
Actually the original proposal was to put it southeast and next to the Old Market. Sketches and everything. A big brick barn. You can't believe the amount of crying over traffic and parking.
That would have been awful. Traffic and parking catastrophe indeed. I like where it is now. It's just the city dropped the ball several times on the surrounding development.
When fortune smiles on something as violent and ugly as revenge, it seems proof like no other that not only does God exist, you're doing his will.
RNcyanide wrote:I feel like we should continue the controlled burn on North Downtown in the North Downtown thread.
Like it or not, I think this project IS North Downtown. When it Fails, so might the North Downtown experiment.
Can't help but wonder what this forum would be like if they put the Arena near or in the old market. Probably a lot less lamenting over other cities who put their arenas in established districts.
Actually the original proposal was to put it southeast and next to the Old Market. Sketches and everything. A big brick barn. You can't believe the amount of crying over traffic and parking.
I remember talks of that, do you still have those renderings?
Linkin5 wrote:
I remember talks of that, do you still have those renderings?
I never had those but they were in the own so they could be found somewhere. I feel bad that I don't still have the owh I had for years that had a four page spread on the current location, showing garages where the baseball park and parking lots are. I hung onto those for years.
RNcyanide wrote:I feel like we should continue the controlled burn on North Downtown in the North Downtown thread.
Like it or not, I think this project IS North Downtown. When it Fails, so might the North Downtown experiment.
Can't help but wonder what this forum would be like if they put the Arena near or in the old market. Probably a lot less lamenting over other cities who put their arenas in established districts.
Actually the original proposal was to put it southeast and next to the Old Market. Sketches and everything. A big brick barn. You can't believe the amount of crying over traffic and parking.
Crying over traffic and parking in Omaha? ;) Shocking I tell you! And yeah, I heard about the original planned location
I really do wish they would have put it in the old market. I also heard that they were planning to build it larger too?
I go back and forth on the location for the Old Market. There's the part of me that thinks how we would have had a much denser development, but we did get a whole new development area downtown with the current location.
One of the earliest spots was actually where it is now. It was when Asarco was still down there. They had talked about the arena being closer to a dome (I remember Shatel referring to it as the Oma-dome). I think they were looking at 45k in his dream scenario. I think though the focus was more on the size we have now. They had renderings in the OWH with a marina and I believe a natural history museum. If memory servers it kind of had an inner-harbor look. Asarco through a fit and that area got scrapped. I think this was when PJ Morgan was mayor and the focus got switched to remodeling the civic. I think when Mike Boyle was mayor they were looking a little west and south of the current location. Close to the Leahy Mall, but Campbell's through a fit and the whole thing did not have a lot of traction.
Bob from Omaha wrote:A cursory google search found this. I think it's close to what was in the owh at the time. There were other rederings too for the old market location.
Bob from Omaha wrote:A cursory google search found this. I think it's close to what was in the owh at the time. There were other rederings too for the old market location.
Bob from Omaha wrote:A cursory google search found this. I think it's close to what was in the owh at the time. There were other rederings too for the old market location.
I'm certainly glad they didn't put the arena and convention center there. That area ( market west ) has developed pretty well on its own the last 10-15 years without any heavy-handed intervention. An arena there most likely would have effed-up the Old Market. They chose the right spot (UP Yards) but failed to let it develop naturally, all in the name of preserving surface parking at all costs, and recently gearing it mostly toward two weeks each year for the CWS. The expected convention traffic never really took-off either. The Clink and TD are already close enough to the Old Market to compliment each other, without being right on top of each other. The Shamrock Development will be a nice bridge between the two once it finally happens. I'm still holding out hope. Sometimes I wonder if there is something going on in the current Mayor's admin that favors one developer over another, keeping things from really taking off. First Crossroads was down-sized, now will this be too?
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings" ...and then they were gone.
GetUrban wrote:I'm certainly glad they didn't put the arena and convention center there. That area ( market west ) has developed pretty well on its own the last 10-15 years without any heavy-handed intervention. An arena there most likely would have effed-up the Old Market. They chose the right spot (UP Yards) but failed to let it develop naturally, all in the name of preserving surface parking at all costs, and recently gearing it mostly toward two weeks each year for the CWS. The expected convention traffic never really took-off either. The Clink and TD are already close enough to the Old Market to compliment each other, without being right on top of each other. The Shamrock Development will be a nice bridge between the two once it finally happens. I'm still holding out hope. Sometimes I wonder if there is something going on in the current Mayor's admin that favors one developer over another, keeping things from really taking off. First Crossroads was down-sized, now will this be too?
Good grief, seriously - a conspiracy theory? The Crossroads development clearly wasn't able to get appropriate financing for its original plans and the mayor's office seemed fine with a groundbreaking for Shamrock in the summer. This isn't rehabbing an old building - these are new, huge developments that take time. I'm sure the mayor's office would be even more thrilled than we are to see these (especially Shamrock's) come to fruition. But no, there's going to be egg on everyone's faces because the administration favors one developer over another.....
GetUrban wrote:I'm certainly glad they didn't put the arena and convention center there. That area ( market west ) has developed pretty well on its own the last 10-15 years without any heavy-handed intervention. An arena there most likely would have effed-up the Old Market. They chose the right spot (UP Yards) but failed to let it develop naturally, all in the name of preserving surface parking at all costs, and recently gearing it mostly toward two weeks each year for the CWS. The expected convention traffic never really took-off either. The Clink and TD are already close enough to the Old Market to compliment each other, without being right on top of each other. The Shamrock Development will be a nice bridge between the two once it finally happens. I'm still holding out hope. Sometimes I wonder if there is something going on in the current Mayor's admin that favors one developer over another, keeping things from really taking off. First Crossroads was down-sized, now will this be too?
Good grief, seriously - a conspiracy theory? The Crossroads development clearly wasn't able to get appropriate financing for its original plans and the mayor's office seemed fine with a groundbreaking for Shamrock in the summer. This isn't rehabbing an old building - these are new, huge developments that take time. I'm sure the mayor's office would be even more thrilled than we are to see these (especially Shamrock's) come to fruition. But no, there's going to be egg on everyone's faces because the administration favors one developer over another.....
No conspiracy implied...just wondering out loud. There has been a lack of visible progress on most of the major announced projects, other than AK Village. I don't know who's to blame, but there doesn't seem to be a real strong force ram-rodding these projects through, as we've seen in past administrations such as Daub's. It's still early in this admin though.
He said "They are some big, ugly red brick buildings" ...and then they were gone.
What would have been demolished to make way for that disaster?
Just off the top of my head, the Union Plaza building, the Kimball Lofts building, the Joslyn Lofts building, the O'Keef Elevator building, 1401 Jones, Driscoll Leather Building, the building on SE corner of 15 and Jones, The Max, among others.
Someone above contemplated how different this thread would be if we had gone with this design. My guess would be we'd be complaining about how we destroyed tons of historic buildings for a terrible design (a la Jobbers Canyon) when we had all this open rotting industrial wasteland available north of 480, and how that rotting wasteland is an absolutely terrible introduction to Omaha for tourists coming from the airport. Just a guess.
Last edited by JDJase on Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All of these projects come down to one basic thing: Financing. If any of the proposed projects in the area are to be built to the scale that they have been proposed, they will require big dollars. $200m in the case of Shamrock. Its not being delayed because of red tape, logistics or angry neighbors. It's because no one is willing to take the risk of lending that kind of money for what has been proposed. Those investors obviously see something the dont like, whether it's the project itself, the developer, the area as it currently stands, or its future potential. In the end I believe it's going to take an entire rethinking by the city, MECA, and involve multiple developers to come up organized vision to get this area to become something close to what many on this forum want to see. Maybe that would prompt lenders and investors to money toward this grand plan.
I'm not a developer. And I don't work for the city. I'm just a longtime citizen. So take that for what it is worth.
If I was the force behind a huge (for Omaha, anyway) new development, that was going to garner a lot of media and social attention, I would darned sure have all my financing ducks in a row before I stuck my, um, duck out on the chopping block and announced with great flourish and fanfare the "ground breaking" for my project.
It's rather like the emperor wandering around with no clothing. Someone needs to call public attention to this charade.
I do have to wonder to some extent how much fault there is in the city though. Just think of all of the major projects we've had stall recently. Basically in the last 10 years the only major developments we've had have been Aksarben and Midtown Crossing, right? And how many stalls have we had? Sure we've had major renovations and good piece by piece development, but the big ones have been failing.
Garrett wrote:I do have to wonder to some extent how much fault there is in the city though. Just think of all of the major projects we've had stall recently. Basically in the last 10 years the only major developments we've had have been Aksarben and Midtown Crossing, right? And how many stalls have we had? Sure we've had major renovations and good piece by piece development, but the big ones have been failing.
Yes, but if expensive huge developments were easy to develop/easy to get financed, we'd all be real estate moguls.
Sure the city of Omaha has to take some blame for the lack of development in this area. But I believe its only because of the poor planning, then and now.
Omaha did play a roll in delaying the Crossroads development but I don't think anyone would disagree with that decision. And if it would have made it to the ballot I'm sure it would have been shot down by tax payers.
In my opinion, it believe Omaha has done much to help spur development. TIF and deeming areas blighted have assisted it. I also believe that when projects have come up in front of the city planning board they have been quick and very fair in moving projects along. AV and MTC are examples of what can be done when you have good financing, strong developers and good vision. Smaller projects like TDA headquarters and Sterling ridge area smaller examples. Going forward, I put my money on projects like the civic development, the continued growth of AV, and while it's not quite Omaha, rivers edge in CB.
The city greatly NEEDS and WANTS developments like Shamrock, Lanoha, and the civic site to continue the growth of its tax base. All of these projects certainly could be built if the city and us tax payers want to take on the liability of bonds to fund them, but none of us want that (power and light distric, KC). So don't think there is some conspiracy or the city is causing these delays. These developers should get their ducks in a row BEFORE they announce their grandiose plans.
iamjacobm wrote:I think the two hold ups right now are the taxi-cab lane and inadequate fire exits from the 3rd floor. Everything else looks to be approved.
