Burlington Station

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:21 am

Finn wrote:

'DC can't even support its Metro system with 15 million or so people in the metro. Get realistic.'..

From the realism dept-

DC's actual metro population according to the US Census 2004 estimate is 5,139,549..If you throw in the Baltimore MSA which is 2,639,213, you have 7,778,759 when combining the two..Los Angeles is 12,925,330..FYI

..

You know, in the area of 'density'..Actually if you look at these tables provided by DEMOGRAPHIA, according to 2000 US Census numbers, Omaha ranks 31st out of the top urbanized area population rankings (the largest 71 in the USA 500,000 or larger) in population density per square mile at 2,768 people per..31st largest on the US!..This in the last of 3 ranking tables in the link here:

http://www.demographia.com/db-ua2000r.htm

Omaha ranks as the 56th largest urbanized area in the US with a population of 626,623 (first ranking table of the above link)..Remember this is urbanized area, not total metro poulation..

So while Omaha's raw numbers may not support a massive rail transit system a la NYC, Philadelphia, LA or DC..Omaha is certainly dense enough IMO to support an urbanized trolly or modified light rail system..Remember in the 1930's through the early 50's, Omaha was 'dense enough' to suport a pretty substantial street car rail system..

Obviously the Omaha of today is certainly different than the one some 55 years ago..But I certainly believe at least some modified version of rapid transit could work for the 'urbanized part of metro Omaha..

I know Aaron and Zephyr have the conceptual type ideas in place and can perhaps chime in..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

Bob from Omaha · Post by **Bob from Omaha** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:43 am

Denver, dallas, minneapolis....all have light rail & not a ton of density.

It's a mind set. All you need is a visionary to make it work. Hal Daub got that.

This is a silly discussion.

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:57 pm

Those are all much larger cities/metros with a much larger and more centric CBD (Omaha is not close to that size/tier of city

). You're right, this is silly 'cause it aint' happening anytime soon! Look at the studies (MAPA and others have studied it), which say it is not feasible mostly due to lack of density. We may get a streetcar line or two down the road (more as a toursit line) but "mass transit" in Omaha is way, way off into the distant future. Back to reality.

Bob from Omaha · Post by **Bob from Omaha** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:19 pm

When I say this is a silly discussion, I mean that there isn't anyone in a position to make it happen who is even remotely excited about the prospect of light rail or any other type of mass transit. Until there is, I just don't see it happening.

Yes, perhaps there might be some form of trolley running down 10th, but even that is remote without at the very least the mayor having it at least on his/her radar. Fahey would be quick to point out that there are no funds for such an endeavor. In my opinion, the time for it would have been with Hal Daub.

In addition, the logistics of some form of rail or light rail from downtown to west Omaha that make economic sense just aren't there. Is there even a demand for such a thing? I don't think so, but I haven't conducted any type of survey either.

Perhaps when the downtown housing growth hits a critical mass it could make sense. In addition, perhaps when North Downtown and other areas downtown and around downtown are built out there could be some form of expanded demand. That is years away and of course discussions along the lines of an Omaha by Design make sense.

As fast as the city is growing and changing the entire post to this point could be moot. Of course I could be just plain wrong as well.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:33 pm

Bob posted:

'Denver, dallas, minneapolis....all have light rail & not a ton of density.'..

And:

'When I say this is a silly discussion, I mean that there isn't anyone in a position to make it happen who is even remotely excited about the prospect of light rail or any other type of mass transit. Until there is, I just don't see it happening.'..

All this I agree with..And I stand by my statement that Omaha while not on the 'tier' of a DFW, Minneapolis or Denver, is plenty dense enough for some modified version of rapid rail transit..It worked for Omaha for nearly 30 years back in the 30's, 40's and 50's..And while a completely different sized metro in terms of it's urbanized area, it can work again for Omaha now..

But Bob ultimately got it right..Without a VISIONARY who is committed and in a position to make rapid transit work again for Omaha..Then this discussion is indeed moot..

THAT is the reality

..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

FatGuy · Post by **FatGuy** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:07 pm

Doesn't it seem reasonable that density will be the result of lightrail? One would think condo/apartment complexes would be built as a result of being next to a lightrail line. My point here is chicken and egg.

I would like to see it happen before the costs for it are higher. We think insitituting lightrail now is expensive, I wonder how expensive it will be in a few decades.

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:40 pm

That is part of the problem, fatguy. But the local governments are not willing to pay millions for something that might bring more density and development. Downtown Omaha has seen businesses and retail move out for thirty years. Now, things are changing, but how long until numbers can work? How long before such an investment can partially pay for itself? It won't happen soon. The reason is the automobile dicatating growth patterns over the last six/seven decades. That is why it is not a feasible investment (and also why it is ridiculous to compare to the streetcars of the 30's and 40's). The capital outaly is too great. It is not a visionary problems - the numbers have been run and they don't compute. Additionally, these systems never pay for themselves, so until there is some NEED for it, it is even more far-fetched.

I would love to see Omaha have some rail. But, it does not NEED it and if anything comes, it will be small/short and tourist related. But, I am still for that scenario!

Bob from Omaha · Post by **Bob from Omaha** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:48 pm

Back to the topic at hand...

I still hope that the Burlington Station can be developed. I have grave doubts as to the proposed project being built. While I wish no one ill, I hope that the building can be developed into a more commercial project. I'd love to see a combination retail/restaurant/(office) type of arrangement. Barring that, wouldn't it make an interesting addition to the Durham Western Heritage Museum? In any case, that end of the downtown could always use another anchor, and this building isn't contributing to it right now. As has been said, it is most certainly deteriorating and will continue to do so.

To those who have proposed the current project I would simply say this:
There are those here who doubt your ability to finish or even start the project. To calm those people you must only do one thing. DO IT! Prove the doubters wrong!

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:57 pm

FatGuy hit the nail on the head in that it is definitely a "chicken and egg" complex.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:49 pm

We used to have to ride the bus for months. It sucked |expletive|. Lots of times buses wouldn't even come because the driver decided he'd rather get off work early than pick up the one person at his stop. Also the places you have to wait suck. You have at best a bench. There aren't any covered or indoor hubs and this is a place with winter. I would never use the bus again unless they made some major changes. Or if I really needed a ride I could call a jitney.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:03 am

..

Whose comparing the 30's to 50's Omaha streetcar system to today? It's a historical point of reference for this community and that is why I brought it up..Omaha has HISTORY with light rail that at one time worked..And it can work again IMO..

Possibly not in our lifetimes but we can hope..In the spirit of not wasting any more of my time..

Onward..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:30 am

It will definitely happen in our lifetimes, the question is whether the ball will get rolling on it while Fahey is still is office. Afterall, he visted the Pearl District in Portland to figure out the very same paradox we're talking about here.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:20 pm

This sounds like a good rumor. I don't like the condo-retail status quo and building inside the great hall would be a disaster.

Good luck with all the transit issues! Wish I could say I know how you feel!

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:44 pm

Welcome back, Zepher!! Where'd you run off to?!

I must align myself with the general consensus that building inside that great hall is a poor idea. I love everything else about the Burlington plans, except breaking up the classic rail station hall.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 9:48 pm

Good point about bus stop shelters, DTO.

I was actually just thinking that the other day as I waited for the bus here in Quebec. I was like wow, all the bus stops here have these great, glass enclosed shelters where you can wait if it's raining or anything. In Omaha there is usually just a rotting wooden "bench".

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:56 pm

Hi tuna! Sorry, I've been swamped with summer classes lately but they are finishing up now, so I have more free time. And work is going a little slow now.

POTUS · Post by **POTUS** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:29 am

StreetsOfOmaha wrote:And, hiner, don't talk to us about getting the people of Omaha to get out of their cars and use transit. It takes city leadership to facilitate this change. It would be one thing if Omaha had an amazing transit system, and still low ridership. But it's quite another when people don't ride transit because it's a shitty system and they don't really have that option. I |expletive| you that if Omaha city government pulled their collective head out of their |expletive| and started some worthwhile transit projects, people would start to ride.

Man, that has to be the most irritating thing I have ever read on this forum. Are you part of the oh-help-us,we're-measely-human-beings-who-require-the-govt-
to-step-in-to-get-anything-done-around-here crowd?

This forum seems to stand up and applaud every shiny new building going up out west, but only raises an eyebrow in our urban eastern half. You want to see this city thrive? Quit talking about it and take a stand. We could have light rail in this town if people would first prove to the city govt that they want it, not the other way around where the city builds it and sees if they will come. Bus ridership is not proof. Mounting a campaign is.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:12 am

Or an attack!!

Er I mean

;)

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:43 am

Actually... as we've discussed before... a 'tourist' oriented 10th street trolley would go a long ways towards opening the eyes of people to rail transit. I'd work towards this much more feasible 'way point' before going on your one man crusade for city wide light rail.

POTUS · Post by **POTUS** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:11 pm

I think a rail line from the airport, down to the qwest, past the old market, down leavenworth towards UNMC would be the perfect way to kick of the new OmahaRail.

Here's a pic of what I am thinking:

FatGuy · Post by **FatGuy** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:40 pm

Potus - I like that. It is simple and easy. I always liked somehow putting a line just on Dodge. Go from 76th to Downtown to the Airport. Most of Omaha's major attractions seem to be a short walk from that strip.

All of our fortune 500's, two major universities, two hospitals, downtown, the Civic and the Qwest, the old market, the riverfront, two beautiful parks, museums, the 72nd and dodge commercial district, and Goldbergs. You got recreation, shopping, a financial district, a bunch of churches, education, entertainment. People would have many reasons to ride the thing damn thing.

Wouldn't it be beautiful if the line was laid and highraises were built right through midtown along Dodge? I think I am getting ahead of myself.

For the record, I also like the plan Zephyr put out about a year ago.

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:26 pm

POTUS wrote:A) "...oh-help-us,we're-measely-human-beings-who-require-the-govt-to-step-in-to-get-anything-done-around-here crowd..."

????

B) This forum seems to stand up and applaud every shiny new building going up out west, but only raises an eyebrow in our urban eastern half.

????

C) You want to see this city thrive? Quit talking about it and take a stand.

????

What the heck are you talking about?

A) Where did you get that? The point is that Omaha has HORRIBLE leadership when it comes to progressive urban issues.

B) This forum applauds every shiny development out west? Are you kidding me? And don't generalize "the forum". It's full of very diverse opinions.

c) 1. This is a discussion forum. Talking is what we do here. 2. How do you know some of us don't take a stand? (http://www.omahastreetcar.com) 3. And as great as taking a stand is, it's very rare that a city would get a progressive transit system because the people were smart enough to demand it. A city gets a progressive transit system when it makes sense in its developmental stage to do so...and it definitely makes sense in Omaha's current stage. Of course these things take years to develop and bring to reality, so the fact that there isn't even a current plan in place is absolutely absurd.

jhiner1 · Post by **jhiner1** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:47 pm

I know some of you are interested in the Burlington Station project. I took some pictures, after Weitz put up the construction lights. Just wanted to get some pictures before the clean up began.

Here are a few 3D renders I am working on:

Link to test animation:
http://www.burlingtonstation.com/pics/web1.mov

I will continue to post pictures and anmiations as the project moves forward.

these will all be on the website once we finish that
http://www.burlingtonstation.com

OmahaJaysCU · Post by **OmahaJaysCU** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:16 pm

Those are great! I'm so pumped that this piece of Omaha's history will soon be comming back to life again. Be sure to keep us posted on the project!

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:28 pm

Great pics. It will be niice to see the progression. I love those arched-brick ceilings!

Do you have any prospective retail/commercial tenants for the project?

jjjjhskr · Post by **jjjjhskr** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:49 pm

Good to see things happening - and it was great to get the tour this summer. I hope it goes well.

MTO · Post by **MTO** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:22 am

Well ill be! Last I knew this project was dead. I am glad to see that it’s actually going to happen. And thanks again for giving us the tour and this info.

Coyote · Post by **Coyote** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:45 am

Many, many thanks! I hope you can keep us up to date photographically of this development!

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:14 am

Welcome back and thanks for the update Jamison!

rowbigred · Post by **rowbigred** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:16 am

I showed this site to my friend who's an architect. Those 3-D renderings, as anyone on here who has any familiarty with construction/CAD/design will know, are simply "graphic design." Those have nothing to do with the final product, and, in fact, are not actual architectural designs. Think of them as a painting of what a building might look like. A painting might be nice, it might give you some idea of what it will be like when finished, but it is hardly concrete progress toward actually beginning work on a building. Paintings, or in this case, fancy graphic design, won't build a building. Show us some REAL architectural renderings of this building, and not just an initial mock up.

The photos you have shown are not of pre-construction. For heaven's sake, if an OSHA inspector came by and saw *that* as a construction site, you'd be shut down in an instant.

I'm afraid this is the continual snow job by Jamison and his mother. They have told the press that they will bring this station to new life, and have offered some half-baked plans about opening a spa and 10 condos, and no one with any brains has figured out that it's a big bunch of baloney! 10 condos and a day spa do not a profitable project make!

Why aren't more people upset about this? Jamison just trots out some crappy photos -- of NOTHING -- and some doodling he's done on the computer, and everyone says it's a great day for Omaha. This is a sad day for Omaha because the Burlington Station, which is about to fall down as it is, is one day closer to doing just that.

The city should exercise its power of eminent domain, re-condemn this structure and open it up to the highest (and most qualified) bidder. We need a transportation center, or some kind of practical use of a train station. A few condos and a Great Clips ain't gonna cut it.

Surely, someone with some experience in urban development, architecture or construction (I'm in construction management) will agree with me here!

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:07 am

Bump..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

scraper · Post by **scraper** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:17 pm

Honestly rowbigred, you need to take your personal vendetta against Jamison somewhere else.

icejammer · Post by **icejammer** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:21 pm

rowbigred-where did anyone say they were architectural renderings? Geesh, get over it already.

Finn · Post by **Finn** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:25 pm

I think many of us realize that nothing has happened for a LONG time at the station, but are holding out hope that something can happen. Maybe they can float the taxes on the building until more residents begin to move downtown and make a push for the condos and some other uses. I have doubted it for a while, but still hope that Jamison and his mother are able to eventually do something. I wish them luck and hope they continue to seek redevelopment of this building (and hope the actually costs are not prohibitive).

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:35 pm

While I love the photos, I have to agree somewhat with rowbigred.

I haven't seen any proof that this will actually happen, including these photos and renderings, which is probably good for me, since I don't think they have selected the correct uses for the building. This building is a gorgeous, old train station, and you want to make it into a spa and 10 condos....excuse me?

This building WAS and IS destined for public use. The building needs to be an intermodal transit center that incorporates mixed uses of office and retail in its upper levels. There is plenty of room ALL around it, epsecially if there was a landswap with Amtrak, to build NEW housing and mixed use construction.

Great pictures, though. This building is GORGEOUS, allbeit a little neglected.

I LOVE the basement, with the white glazed brick. It reminds me of a turn of the century NYC Subway station, or Paris Metro.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:40 pm

Well said, Streets. And I absolutely do not like the idea of adding more floors in the main hall.

Bob from Omaha · Post by **Bob from Omaha** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:04 pm

scraper wrote:Honestly rowbigred, you need to take your personal vendetta against Jamison somewhere else.

I didn't see evidence of a personal attack. It seems more like heathy skepticizm. I'd like to see something done with the building as well, but posting here (with due respect to Jeff) isn't quite the same as seeing building permits in the OWH or actual progress on construction or naming tenants. I don't have anything against the guy, but actions speak louder than words, here or anywhere else.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:05 pm

The debate on the 'legitimacy' of this project continues I guess..Although I do find it funny..Seemingly every single time jhiner1 has come into the forum and posted an update on his project, some newly registered person will come in to refuke and rebutt it..

Anyway..Thanks for the update jhiner1..And I too enjoyed your tour of the place during our forum meet last June..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

jhiner1 · Post by **jhiner1** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:57 pm

Maybe I should go done there and take pictures of the guys in hard hats that say Weitz on them, would that prove forward progress? As for the 3D renders, I created those for the condo packages and website, they are nothing close to constructions plans. I based them off of the architects floor plans that we are working on. They are only used to show what it could look like.

Re-condemn - It was never condemn in he first place, the engineers said the building would last for another 500 years (I guess its hard for some people to look past the flaking paint and crumbling plaster)

Sorry rowbigred, you want be able to get your hair cut at the spa because they don’t do hair.

The Burlington. World-class living in harmony with tradition.

Three Story Atrium - Airy and open, an invitation to explore the European-influenced ambience of the Burlington Station.
Luxurious Spa and Fitness Gym - Indulge, and tone in a world-class health establishment.
Resistance Pools & Waterfalls - Unwind and exercise in a thoughtfully realized, work-out environment.
European Style and Ethnic Markets - A world of shopping, steps away from your door.
World-Class Restaurants - Fine dining and grand entertaining without leaving The Burlington Station building.
Over 100 Parking Stalls - Ample supervised parking for your guests and visitors.
Secured Underground Parking - Know that your personal vehicles are secured and out of the elements.
Private Gardens - Lush, natural green spaces for relaxation and contemplation.
Juliette Balconies with French Doors - A continental touch of luxury and sophistication.
Skylights - Introducing the unfiltered colors and light of nature into your home environment.
Storage Areas - Secure space for your belongings, close at hand.
Panoramic views - Unfettered views of the city, the river area, and the Downtown skyline through your
own windows.
Private Wine Cellar - Temperature controlled storage for your favorite vintages.

Post by **Admin** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:02 pm

Take a hike rowbigred.

I received the following response from Weitz (I never doubted you Jamison, this is for anyone who did)...

Rob Zimmerman of Weitz wrote: Jeff,

We are the General Contractor for the Burlington Station project.
The project is currently in the Design Development stage. We are
doing some cleanup work and securing the building this month.