A pedestrian Old Market

swgiust · Post by **swgiust** » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:31 pm

From the first time I was in the Old Market I thought closing some streets was a great ideas. If we could get the some free parking on 12th and Harney,
it would go well to making the Old Market competitive again with some of the newer developments.

A great read:

https://omaha.com/news/local/history/om ... e-trending

Athomsfere · Post by **Athomsfere** » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:03 pm

I thought the same.

I find it weird that this is suddenly a common topic though. I've been thinking no one else would get behind this, but I think this is a great plan...

Although, bikes should be allowed as long as they are just commuting. Not a speed route.

ita · Post by **ita** » Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:25 pm

I am pleasantly surprised that OWH commenters are mostly for a pedestrian only Old Market. People are familiar with the concept apparently, and see Old Market as a place to do it.

stadsborgare · Post by **stadsborgare** » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:49 pm

My photos would look better without all the cars in them.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:53 pm

I like the idea, but I am torn on it. I know how a lot of people in Omaha just avoid an area if they can't park on the same block and I wonder if it would hurt businesses as a result of this.

ita · Post by **ita** » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:17 pm

skinzfan23 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:53 pm I like the idea, but I am torn on it. I know how a lot of people in Omaha just avoid an area if they can't park on the same block and I wonder if it would hurt businesses as a result of this.

I understand the concern, but if the street space and parking lots within the district are used wisely with good programming, open for food vendors, places to just hang out/dance/whatever, etc. it will become even more of a destination and people will come. It's hard to expand the retail and programming space in Old Market, but this idea does that and will breath new life into the area.

Athomsfere · Post by **Athomsfere** » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:27 pm

skinzfan23 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:53 pm I like the idea, but I am torn on it. I know how a lot of people in Omaha just avoid an area if they can't park on the same block and I wonder if it would hurt businesses as a result of this.

I think the business owners would be the most concerned.

But honestly, who actually parks within 1 block of where they are going anyway? Parking is usually full enough that you could just go to a garage, or up a few blocks, and walk about the same distance but save the time fighting your way through the hectic traffic.

Once the uncertainty is over, I think the in-flow of new energy and a street market environment would keep more people coming. It would be great to have something like a christmas market fill the streets every year too.

nebport5 · Post by **nebport5** » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:15 pm

I think you have to factor in the demand for what the OM offers. It's also tough being a boutique retailer with high rent. It might be something to experiment with on weekends. Is there really much need for this on weekdays? I wouldn't hold your breath on free parking. However, this plan might be embraced more if there were a proper parking structure built at 10th and Jackson, perhaps with a more enticing hourly rates. Oh yeah, and ground level retail for all of us development idealists which could of course expand the overall OM offerings. In short, it would help to expand the appeal of the area as a destination beyond tourists wandering around not buying anything.

jomaha9 · Post by **jomaha9** » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:25 pm

The other factor to consider is that Old Market streets serve logistical needs for restaurants and bars that receive supplies from food delivery trucks.

If the Old Market were to be pedestrian only, the food delivery companies that supply the restaurants would have to park and unload from an outer road like 13th to serve businesses inside the ped only area. This would lead to surcharges and the cost would pass to the restaurants and the customers.

I like the idea of pedestrian only traffic at night and on weekends, but not 24/7.

LetsBeReal22 · Post by **LetsBeReal22** » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:13 pm

So make Howard street a walking street on the weekends. Roll out some large planters to block the road Friday afternoon and pull them back Sunday night.

TitosBuritoBarn · Post by **TitosBuritoBarn** » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:39 pm

I’m all for making this into a pedestrian mall, but studies show that these work best with a level of density surrounding which is why you’ll find successful iterations of these most frequently in large cities, college towns, and resort towns and not many other places. The Old Market does have a fair amount of residents and draws a fair number of tourists but I’d be a little nervous to make it per friendly 24/7 right now. I’d be comfortable with a system, like some have already suggested, similar to Beale Street in Memphis and Bourbon Street in New Orleans where the streets are closed at busy times to cars but remain open to vehicle traffic otherwise. If we eventually reach a significant amount of density in the Old Market then by all means shut it down permanently.

buildomaha · Post by **buildomaha** » Tue Apr 27, 2021 11:18 pm

I agree. Test out the concept on the weekends and if it’s successful transition to ped mall (probably after ConAgra campus redev).
There’s a reason ped malls exploded in the 70s and we’re gonna just as fast. Americans have been conditioned to drive and to only drive, and our cities reflect that. There has to be a transition instead of a sudden change to pedestrian-priority (as much as I want it).

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:11 am

I’m kind of “meh” on the entire concept..

What is the purpose of it really? To make The Old Market pedestrian only in order to breath new life into a somewhat sodden area that could use a boost? Hmmm..

Folks, first off, I don’t agree with this premise. There is nothing wrong with the OM as it’s presently constituted. Cutting off cars isn’t necessary. What’s necessary, is getting to the other side of this Freakin’ Pandemic..Then it will be business as usual for our unique and ever evolving Old Market district..and that’s a good thing..

If the city adopts a burr in their behinds and believes a plan like this is worth looking into, then I’d agree with several posters here- try the pedestrian only concept on Friday and Saturday only.. Then, if some sort of miraculous epiphany occurs and this concept magically transforms the OM into an enhanced version of itself on steroids, then phase it in..and color me in as a believer..

Ultimately and imo, I don’t think the concept is necessary, needed or feasible for that matter..

Of course, feel free to disagree (or agree if you like)

...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

nebport5 · Post by **nebport5** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:44 am

Omaha Cowboy wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:11 am I’m kind of “meh” on the entire concept..

What is the purpose of it really? To make The Old Market pedestrian only in order to breath new life into a somewhat sodden area that could use a boost? Hmmm..

Folks, first off, I don’t agree with this premise. There is nothing wrong with the OM as it’s presently constituted. Cutting off cars isn’t necessary. What’s necessary, is getting to the other side of this Freakin’ Pandemic..Then it will be business as usual for our unique and ever evolving Old Market district..and that’s a good thing..

If the city adopts a burr in their behinds and believes a plan like this is worth looking into, then I’d agree with several posters here- try the pedestrian only concept on Friday and Saturday only.. Then, if some sort of miraculous epiphany occurs and this concept magically transforms the OM into an enhanced version of itself on steroids, then phase it in..and color me in as a believer..

Ultimately and imo, I don’t think the concept is necessary, needed or feasible for that matter..

Of course, feel free to disagree (or agree if you like) ...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

I think the potential benefit would be making the area more pedestrian friendly during peak days/hours. More efficient pedestrian traffic during these times could benefit retailers. Think of how congested the intersection of 11th and Howard is on a Friday or Saturday night. It's an ugly menagerie of West O people willing to circle the same block repeatedly for a spot in front Spaghetti Works, motorists who can't fathom the concept of a four way stop and pedestrians froggering in between. At the very least make the parking along the bricks more expensive and offer more economical parking a short walk away.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:55 am

nebport5 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:44 am
Omaha Cowboy wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:11 am I’m kind of “meh” on the entire concept..

What is the purpose of it really? To make The Old Market pedestrian only in order to breath new life into a somewhat sodden area that could use a boost? Hmmm..

Folks, first off, I don’t agree with this premise. There is nothing wrong with the OM as it’s presently constituted. Cutting off cars isn’t necessary. What’s necessary, is getting to the other side of this Freakin’ Pandemic..Then it will be business as usual for our unique and ever evolving Old Market district..and that’s a good thing..

If the city adopts a burr in their behinds and believes a plan like this is worth looking into, then I’d agree with several posters here- try the pedestrian only concept on Friday and Saturday only.. Then, if some sort of miraculous epiphany occurs and this concept magically transforms the OM into an enhanced version of itself on steroids, then phase it in..and color me in as a believer..

Ultimately and imo, I don’t think the concept is necessary, needed or feasible for that matter..

Of course, feel free to disagree (or agree if you like) ...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

I think the potential benefit would be making the area more pedestrian friendly during peak days/hours. More efficient pedestrian traffic during these times could benefit retailers. Think of how congested the intersection of 11th and Howard is on a Friday or Saturday night. It's an ugly menagerie of West O people willing to circle the same block repeatedly for a spot in front Spaghetti Works, motorists who can't fathom the concept of a four way stop and pedestrians froggering in between. At the very least make the parking along the bricks more expensive and offer more economical parking a short walk away.

I think you make a good point..and of course we’ve seen the “ring around the rosy” cycle of cars circling the Old Market on a Friday/Saturday evening looking for prime parking..Like a hawk high on a perch eyeballing for prey.. I get it..

However, the more I think about this plan, and the reasoning behind it..makes me harken back to the proverbial “It’s not broke, don’t fix it” routine.. In the mid 80’s, Coca-Cola couldn’t help itself and just “had” to tinker with their tried and true soda recipe. In 1985, “new” Coke was introduced and promptly fell on its face. Within 6 or so months- the original recipe was brought back and “Classic Coke” was branded..other 6 months to a year later, “new” coke was banished from existence..

I just don’t see the necessity of trying to “fix” an Old Market that, imo, doesn’t need fixing.. Just get past this crazy pandemic and the Old Market will continue to evolve and be just fine..with or without a motor vehicle component...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Busguy2010 · Post by **Busguy2010** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:56 am

I wonder if there would be any tangible effect by not closing the streets, but just removing the parking.

Busguy2010 · Post by **Busguy2010** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:02 am

I'm also in the camp that it isn't something that needs to happen. Also I'm doubtful closing the streets would have any positive affect on business traffic in ye Old Market. But for some reason, I like the prospect of removing cars from the inner streets, at least on a special event type level. Perhaps just during the CWS, Summer Omaha Arts Festival, Holiday Lights Festival, etc. So only clising it for a total of like 20 days or so per year, just to try it and see if anything positive or negative comes out of it.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:06 am

Busguy2010 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:02 am I'm also in the camp that it isn't something that needs to happen. Also I'm doubtful closing the streets would have any positive affect on business traffic in ye Old Market. But for some reason, I like the prospect of removing cars from the inner streets, at least on a special event type level. Perhaps just during the CWS, Summer Omaha Arts Festival, Holiday Lights Festival, etc. So only clising it for a total of like 20 days or so per year, just to try it and see if anything positive or negative comes out of it.

I agree with you..

I guess what I’m trying to say as it relates to my last post, The Old Market is already a tried and true classic..

Don’t mess with it...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Busguy2010 · Post by **Busguy2010** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:09 am

Another factor I didn't think about is the delivery bays in the alleys. They need truck access. Garbage access, utility access, emergency access, etc.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:33 am

I think that point is moot..

If a plan like this is ever tested, it would account for truck access and delivery bays etc..

The point of this idea, is to limit (or eliminate) consumer car parking and through access..as that would somehow transform the Old Market into a celestial playground..

Don’t see it happening folks...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Busguy2010 · Post by **Busguy2010** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:13 am

That's what I'm saying, the alleys and the services that use them alone would basically kill the feasibility of this idea.

"best" thing I could now see happening would be closing Howard from 10th to 11th, 11th to 12th, and 12th to 13th. Not that that would be bad for the people who like this idea, but it wouldn't be the whole cake. I'm thinking 11th and 12th would have to remain open under all circumstances.

At least in my mind, the whole idea was only to close the area inside and bound by Harney, 10th, Jackson, and 13th. So then if you could only feasibly close Howard within that area, then the whole idea gets made pretty pointless IMO.

TitosBuritoBarn · Post by **TitosBuritoBarn** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:37 am

You could still grant access to delivery trucks.. or they could park on the outside of the ped zone and dolly stuff over. There’s no easy delivery parking as it is.

There aren’t new delivery methods that need to be invented. Ped malls already exist!

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:47 am

TitosBuritoBarn wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:37 am There aren’t new delivery methods that need to be invented. Ped malls already exist!

Which brings us (or I guess me) back to the actual question of the idea- Does the Old Market need to be transformed into a “ped mall”?..

I think not at all..leave the place alone, get through the pandemic, and allow it organically evolve.. just like it has each decade of its existence...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Busguy2010 · Post by **Busguy2010** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:48 am

Anyway, I feel pretty confident in saying the majority of the retail bays within that 6 block square do not face 11th or 12th, so maybe Just closing Howard for a pedestrian mall would be all that is really needed anyway. That would satisfy my desire for this idea, anyway.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:03 am

I agree with your points Cowboy.

The one thing I would like to see is the sidewalks and planters rebuilt. I like the historic vibe, but at some point they need to spend a little money to fix some of the basic aesthetic aspects. If anything is done, I would think to start here first.

GetUrban · Post by **GetUrban** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:50 am

Omaha Cowboy wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:47 am
TitosBuritoBarn wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:37 am There aren’t new delivery methods that need to be invented. Ped malls already exist!
Which brings us (or I guess me) back to the actual question of the idea- Does the Old Market need to be transformed into a “ped mall”?..

I think not at all..leave the place alone, get through the pandemic, and allow it organically evolve.. just like it has each decade of its existence...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

I agree with Omaha Cowboy. I’ve watched the old market evolve over the last 25-30 years, including working within the Market over a third of that time. Some staples have been there as long as I can remember. Others come and go along with the trends. It’s still one of my favorite places to go mainly for the now 140 year-old character of the place and variety of people who gather there. I could see closing off the streets to parking for special events, but I really don’t think anything more permanent needs to happen. If you’ve ever been to New York City, the streets and sidewalks seem deserted in the Old Market even on a busy Saturday night compared to the average streets and sidewalks in NYC, or Chicago. The Old Market has more competition now with Midtown Crossing, Blackstone, Benson, Ak Village, and even Village Pointe. Some of those places learned from the OM’s success and have parking up close to the buildings and let tamed traffic pass though. Taming the traffic with nodes at the intersections is key. There are bigger problems to fix in Omaha besides trying to fix a problem that doesn’t really exist. If any permanent structures or even enlarged portable seating areas are allowed to intrude into the streets, the buildings could be put in more jeopardy than they already are for fire department / emergency access.

Busguy2010 · Post by **Busguy2010** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:09 am

GetUrban wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:50 am There are bigger problems to fix in Omaha besides trying to fix a problem that doesn’t really exist. If any permanent structures or even enlarged portable seating areas are allowed to intrude into the streets, the buildings could be put in more jeopardy than they already are for fire department / emergency access.

I agree with both of these. But on the point of actual problems to fix, I definitely agree. But this could be an experiment that could be done very cheaply. Just a matter of putting signs up if it were to just be an experiment. And I just want to say that I don't think anyone outside of a few people on this forum and otherwise in this city would really want this. Definitely not the business owners in the Old Market, probably not the people who live there. So it is really a non-issue to push... But it is kind of a fun idea that I could now partially get behind.

If any road closures were to be "permanent", it could be something as simple as putting up those flexible pedestrian thingamabobbers that they have at 42nd and just south of Dewey. So then regular drivers would be deterred, but emergency vehicles could easily drive over them.

Again, my stance now is that Howard between 10th and 13th could effectively be made a pedestrian mall, but that is about it IMO.

S.O.Boy · Post by **S.O.Boy** » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:35 pm

There are days it seems like pedestrian mall, already.

PWL73316 · Post by **PWL73316** » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:20 pm

jomaha9 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:25 pm The other factor to consider is that Old Market streets serve logistical needs for restaurants and bars that receive supplies from food delivery trucks.

If the Old Market were to be pedestrian only, the food delivery companies that supply the restaurants would have to park and unload from an outer road like 13th to serve businesses inside the ped only area. This would lead to surcharges and the cost would pass to the restaurants and the customers.

This is a solved problem.... bollards or whatever that they lower/remove for deliveries very early in the morning or even as-needed. Closed to traffic doesn't mean it's closed to everyone with an appointment. Not a huge deal honestly.

The biggest issue I have with it is that the Old Market is not a 'high street' - there's no significant shopping. I know there are like 3 or 4 stores that eke it out there, but there's nothing like a national retail presence that draws people in. Traditionally the big win you get from pedestrianizing an area is that it makes it easier to shop and browse, but the OM is much more restaurant and bar focused. I think you could easily make it pedestrian only on weekend afternoons/evenings and that would help the eateries and drinkeries, but I don't think you get, well, anything from it on a Tuesday morning.

Athomsfere · Post by **Athomsfere** » Mon May 03, 2021 3:10 pm

PWL73316 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:20 pm
jomaha9 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:25 pm
The biggest issue I have with it is that the Old Market is not a 'high street' - there's no significant shopping. I know there are like 3 or 4 stores that eke it out there, but there's nothing like a national retail presence that draws people in. Traditionally the big win you get from pedestrianizing an area is that it makes it easier to shop and browse, but the OM is much more restaurant and bar focused. I think you could easily make it pedestrian only on weekend afternoons/evenings and that would help the eateries and drinkeries, but I don't think you get, well, anything from it on a Tuesday morning.
I think this is heading to where he market needs to go. Get more people shopping for random things. I think there are some gems (Hollywood, Imaginarium, McLovin).

If we could keep adding things like that, and keep national chains out... It would certainly be a boon.

iamjacobm · Post by **iamjacobm** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:16 pm

Not the whole Old Market, but I read this park proposal as the parking lot at 11th and Jackson.

It would be nicer than the parking lot, but I’d probably prefer the site be developed.

GrowUpFrances · Post by **GrowUpFrances** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:58 pm

Interesting. The design firm has worked on a lot of high-profile projects.
https://www.fieldoperations.net/projects.html

ita · Post by **ita** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:08 pm

iamjacobm wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 5:16 pm
Not the whole Old Market, but I read this park proposal as the parking lot at 11th and Jackson.

It would be nicer than the parking lot, but I’d probably prefer the site be developed.

Interesting development. Is this for the surface lot (NE corner) or parking garage (SE corner)? I assume it's the city parking garage. While I would like these surface lots/parking lots in Old Market developed into commercial/residential property, a public park is just as good. Maybe the folks across of 10th will develop the surface parking lot or sell it to a developer in the future.

skinzfan23 · Post by **skinzfan23** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:15 pm

As mentioned above, better than a parking lot, but with the Riverfronts parks all being done I don’t think there is need for another space like this here.

Let’s get the land developed (the streetcar should help with that)

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:30 pm

skinzfan23 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:15 pm As mentioned above, better than a parking lot, but with the Riverfronts parks all being done I don’t think there is need for another space like this here.

Let’s get the land developed (the streetcar should help with that)

Yes, this seems like a waste of money when you consider the value that the land has after the mall is redone and with the insane current investments in DT.

Garrett · Post by **Garrett** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:40 pm

Yeah the 11th/Jackson surface lot seems like a weird pick considering the new HoA is right there a block away

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:51 pm

Garrett wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:40 pm Yeah the 11th/Jackson surface lot seems like a weird pick considering the new HoA is right there a block away

Developing that lot is a no-brainer, it would extend the contiguous Old Market on Jackson all the way to the Tavern and Embassy Suites. Especially with the parking garage to the south, it really shouldn't be anything but a new building.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:52 pm

I agree with the last several posts..

Another park..and on a present surface lot just seems odd..Let’s build up and develop that land. Residential would be nice…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

TitosBuritoBarn · Post by **TitosBuritoBarn** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:59 pm

I also do not think this should be a park. I'd maybe make an exception for a tastefully done food truck park (no pun intended) but even that, IIRC, is a part of the new Gene Leahy Mall.

GrowUpFrances · Post by **GrowUpFrances** » Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:19 pm

It would be great if they could develop that block and include the covered sidewalks like the older buildings along 11th street. The covered sidewalks really give the Old Market its charm and make the area more walkable in rainy weather.