Urban Grocery Store

Omahacritic · Post by **Omahacritic** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:47 am

Cubbies is fine for what it is. But it isn’t a grocer. It’s a bit more than a convenience store.

Regardless ,, it is only there until a developer comes along and wants the land upon which it sits. Nobody will spend for modernizing the place. I wonder how old the fuel tanks are under the place.

As Cowboy said, a Modern Downtown with 10,000 residents and 35,000 workers needs a bit more.

Every dollar spent on non-food groceries in Council Bluffs stays there. So does fuel taxes.

iamjacobm · Post by **iamjacobm** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:06 am

Omahacritic wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:47 am Cubbies is fine for what it is. But it isn’t a grocer. It’s a bit more than a convenience store.

Regardless ,, it is only there until a developer comes along and wants the land upon which it sits. Nobody will spend for modernizing the place. I wonder how old the fuel tanks are under the place.

As Cowboy said, a Modern Downtown with 10,000 residents and 35,000 workers needs a bit more.

Every dollar spent on non-food groceries in Council Bluffs stays there. So does fuel taxes.

Never is a strong word, but the odds of someone that can make a Cubbies site redevelopment work with the tanks and scale issues that always come up in the OM I wouldn't expect anything to happen there for a long long time.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:41 pm

Seeing as Cubbies is towards the south end of downtown and a possible location for a full size grocer in North DT, I think there would be demand for both to operate.

jomaha9 · Post by **jomaha9** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:38 pm

Hello,

Long time lurker, first time commenter.

I'm not the biggest fan of Cubbies but it is more than just a convenience store as it has produce and a meat department.

One other point to bring up is that Patrick's Market was a full fledged grocery store in downtown for a number of years and it recently closed. If I'm HyVee or some other grocery chain looking downtown, this would be a red flag for me.

I do think Omaha can support another grocery store in downtown but it would have to be in North Downtown or in the Capital District.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:05 pm

Louie wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:41 pm Seeing as Cubbies is towards the south end of downtown and a possible location for a full size grocer in North DT, I think there would be demand for both to operate.

I agree..

Cubbies is a tweener- Not quite a full service grocery store, but more than a conventional convenience store..

I don’t think Cubbies would directly compete with a full service grocer. And also, with it’s possible position within North Downtown, they would likely both live happily within the downtown core...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:08 pm

jomaha9 wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:38 pm Hello,

Long time lurker, first time commenter.

I'm not the biggest fan of Cubbies but it is more than just a convenience store as it has produce and a meat department.

One other point to bring up is that Patrick's Market was a full fledged grocery store in downtown for a number of years and it recently closed. If I'm HyVee or some other grocery chain looking downtown, this would be a red flag for me.

I do think Omaha can support another grocery store in downtown but it would have to be in North Downtown or in the Capital District.

Good input and welcome to the forum

...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

Omahacritic · Post by **Omahacritic** » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:34 am

Omaha Cowboy wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:05 pm
Louie wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:41 pm Seeing as Cubbies is towards the south end of downtown and a possible location for a full size grocer in North DT, I think there would be demand for both to operate.
I agree..

Cubbies is a tweener- Not quite a full service grocery store, but more than a conventional convenience store..

I don’t think Cubbies would directly compete with a full service grocer. And also, with it’s possible position within North Downtown, they would likely both live happily within the downtown core...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

“Tweeter” might be appropriate. I look at it from a selection standpoint. I’m not finding my favorite salsa there. Nor my favorite jams or protein bars. Nor or all the size of products. But if I need a loaf of bread ! Bingo. AND, the do carry one of the bette4 brands of Sourdough available in metro area. (Not saying much though).

I asked about the fuel tanks ... wondering last time EPA certified them. Once they are too old, they would likely be too expensive to replace ... and the revenue source would be gone. Just curious.

But yeah, Cubbies would survive a bigger grocer in North Downtown. A bigger store would attract more residents overall.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:56 am

Omahacritic wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:34 am
Omaha Cowboy wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:05 pm
Louie wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:41 pm Seeing as Cubbies is towards the south end of downtown and a possible location for a full size grocer in North DT, I think there would be demand for both to operate.
I agree..

Cubbies is a tweener- Not quite a full service grocery store, but more than a conventional convenience store..

I don’t think Cubbies would directly compete with a full service grocer. And also, with it’s possible position within North Downtown, they would likely both live happily within the downtown core...

Ciao..LiO...Peace
“Tweeter” might be appropriate. I look at it from a selection standpoint. I’m not finding my favorite salsa there. Nor my favorite jams or protein bars. Nor or all the size of products. But if I need a loaf of bread ! Bingo. AND, the do carry one of the bette4 brands of Sourdough available in metro area. (Not saying much though).

But yeah, Cubbies would survive a bigger grocer in North Downtown. A bigger store would attract more residents overall.

I think we have a winner here critic.. I completely agree..

My humble opinion of course

...

Ciao..LiO...Peace

ScrattyB · Post by **ScrattyB** » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:37 pm

After making a wrong turn in North Downtown, I agree that this new urban grocery store should be south of 480. There's just not enough residents north of 480 to make a grocery store profitable. This place needs to be within walking distance of many residents.

mistergutierrez · Post by **mistergutierrez** » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:06 pm

I think that the lot in the northwest corner of Farnam and 20th makes more sense.
There are more apartments nearby and it's a corridor for the people leaving downtown in the evening.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:17 pm

mistergutierrez wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:06 pm I think that the lot in the northwest corner of Farnam and 20th makes more sense.
There are more apartments nearby and it's a corridor for the people leaving downtown in the evening.

Damn, that would be a much better use case for that space.

Omahacritic · Post by **Omahacritic** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:15 am

Not enough room for the necessary infrastructure up there. And off street parking too limited. Land more valuable as apartments or mid rise.

ScrattyB · Post by **ScrattyB** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:52 pm

Omahacritic wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:15 am Not enough room for the necessary infrastructure up there. And off street parking too limited. Land more valuable as apartments or mid rise.

You're familiar with the urban HyVee concept, right?
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.584873, ... 6656?hl=en
Apartments above the HyVee : http://www.fourthandcourt.com/

There looks to be PLENTY of space at 20th and Farnam.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:17 pm

ScrattyB wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:52 pm
Omahacritic wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:15 am Not enough room for the necessary infrastructure up there. And off street parking too limited. Land more valuable as apartments or mid rise.
You're familiar with the urban HyVee concept, right?
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.584873, ... 6656?hl=en
Apartments above the HyVee : http://www.fourthandcourt.com/

There looks to be PLENTY of space at 20th and Farnam.

Totally agree. Is there any add'l parking at that HyVee?

ScrattyB · Post by **ScrattyB** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:19 pm

Louie wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:17 pm Totally agree. Is there any add'l parking at that HyVee?

Besides the parking garage? The street.

Louie · Post by **Louie** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:22 pm

Ah, I didn't see that there was a garage behind the structure in that Street View imagery.

ita · Post by **ita** » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:41 pm

Louie wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:22 pm Ah, I didn't see that there was a garage behind the structure in that Street View imagery.

Who needs parking when the streetcar will go right by it.

In all seriousness, this is a pretty good spot. Plenty of space, plenty of parking, and near several large residential buildings.

Omahacritic · Post by **Omahacritic** » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:43 am

ScrattyB wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:52 pm
Omahacritic wrote: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:15 am Not enough room for the necessary infrastructure up there. And off street parking too limited. Land more valuable as apartments or mid rise.
You're familiar with the urban HyVee concept, right?
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.584873, ... 6656?hl=en
Apartments above the HyVee : http://www.fourthandcourt.com/

There looks to be PLENTY of space at 20th and Farnam.

Do you think HyVee is the first grocer to build in a dense urban area?

There are some apartments in that area, but the bulk of them are east of 16th. You talk about walking ... they won’t walk up hill through the wind tunnels to 20th Farnam.
Not to mention, the two biggest employment buildings have their workers park from Douglas north to California streets.

The empty lots are long and skinny. Not exactly the same as the HyVee location in your link. Very little space for trucks and such.

ScrattyB · Post by **ScrattyB** » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:06 pm

Omahacritic wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:43 am Do you think HyVee is the first grocer to build in a dense urban area?

Not at all. With all the big cities in the US, I'm not sure why anyone would think HyVee was the first.
Side note, HyVee's 90 year anniversary is coming up soon.

Omahacritic · Post by **Omahacritic** » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:00 am

Long live the employee ownership concept!

advcomp2019 · Post by **advcomp2019** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:07 pm

I know this is not a grocery stores, but I have heard that Target is putting smaller stores downtown in some town's downtown, but I am not sure how much space they need over the bigger stores.

buildomaha · Post by **buildomaha** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:57 pm

Target is opening a small store in downtown iowa city. There’s absolutely no reason why Omaha shouldn’t have the same.

Post by **nebugeater** » Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:30 pm

buildomaha wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:57 pm Target is opening a small store in downtown iowa city. There’s absolutely no reason why Omaha shouldn’t have the same.

http://www.eomahaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20260

mistergutierrez · Post by **mistergutierrez** » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:29 pm

Big companies in Europe such as Tesco (UK) or Carrefour (France) have their own urban options, actually both called "Express". They offer almost full service grocery, including bakery, deli, fruits and vegetables, fresh meat and fish. Tesco Express are around 11,000 sq ft, I believe that was the surface of Patrick's market more or less, isn't it?
I think that option is what Omaha needs, but again, I guess they do their market research and, if it is not one yet, it is because there is not enough people DT to meet their market expectations.

ita · Post by **ita** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm

Can you all point me to some successful urban grocery projects from other cities? I have searched some and many have not been completed. I know we point to DSM's downtown Hy-Vee, but you all have any other examples?

Greg S · Post by **Greg S** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:17 pm

ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm Can you all point me to some successful urban grocery projects from other cities? I have searched some and many have not been completed. I know we point to DSM's downtown Hy-Vee, but you all have any other examples?

Cosentino's in downtown KC is awesome:

https://www.cosentinosmarket.com/stores ... own-market

Greg

Athomsfere · Post by **Athomsfere** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:05 pm

ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm Can you all point me to some successful urban grocery projects from other cities? I have searched some and many have not been completed. I know we point to DSM's downtown Hy-Vee, but you all have any other examples?

Trader Joe's in Austin, and Wholefoods in Minneapolis come to mind. Both right in the downtown, both have been busy when I have been there.

ita · Post by **ita** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:06 pm

Greg S wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:17 pm
ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm Can you all point me to some successful urban grocery projects from other cities? I have searched some and many have not been completed. I know we point to DSM's downtown Hy-Vee, but you all have any other examples?
Cosentino's in downtown KC is awesome:

https://www.cosentinosmarket.com/stores ... own-market

Greg

OK, cool. I am not super familiar with KC development. Was the Power and Light district a result (maybe partially) because of the streetcar? I would love to see something like One Light/Cosentino's at that parking lot on 20th and Farnam.

TitosBuritoBarn · Post by **TitosBuritoBarn** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:07 pm

ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm Can you all point me to some successful urban grocery projects from other cities? I have searched some and many have not been completed. I know we point to DSM's downtown Hy-Vee, but you all have any other examples?

Garrett · Post by **Garrett** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:09 pm

I would list most every grocery store in Manhattan but that might be excessive hahaha

Athomsfere · Post by **Athomsfere** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:19 pm

Garrett wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:09 pm I would list most every grocery store in Manhattan but that might be excessive hahaha

lol, I thought about that as an example too. But I figured there was a lot more nuance than what NYC can do, versus almost anywhere else in the USA.

Doctor Fate · Post by **Doctor Fate** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:22 pm

Salt Lake City
Harmon's (In the CBD.)
Lee's Market (On the west end of downtown SLC, surrounded by residential. I used to live in this building.)

ita · Post by **ita** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:31 pm

TitosBuritoBarn wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:07 pm
ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm Can you all point me to some successful urban grocery projects from other cities? I have searched some and many have not been completed. I know we point to DSM's downtown Hy-Vee, but you all have any other examples?
I got a bajillion of them. Each of them have on-site covered parking:

St. Louis:
https://goo.gl/maps/3xhL9K3VvG39cNkB6
https://goo.gl/maps/wUfdzLhUXUHBJf6h9

Chicago:
https://goo.gl/maps/o3hnburbsfT5jrEM9
https://goo.gl/maps/z25BN8n32A5B38y17
https://goo.gl/maps/YvidoYdfVCwWXysr5
https://goo.gl/maps/Aduz5YicnrSkn8z26
https://goo.gl/maps/mAyrzAEV75QrETiV9

Los Angeles:
https://goo.gl/maps/woP9CLm6aNqdeq8m6
https://goo.gl/maps/a55BJzEczR2zMm3y7
https://goo.gl/maps/rFjxjZnfj6Eh8EBw9

Milwaukee:
https://goo.gl/maps/WPoGFe4G6FZD4XcAA

San Francisco:
https://goo.gl/maps/k6zprwFvwjGZH1Np8

New Orleans:
https://goo.gl/maps/r3Qc6GxkL46kVRjV7
https://goo.gl/maps/LfGAQK5f89gxu1vX9

Denver:
https://goo.gl/maps/fRHDBBRLqof8f72Y9
https://goo.gl/maps/qC6qKRNVw3WAhhu66

Orlando:
https://goo.gl/maps/HsTUtRKbaRfRLjYF8

If you need more I have more.

I went through every single one, thanks! I definitely want to see one as part of a multi-use development, even more so now after looking at all of these.

NEDodger · Post by **NEDodger** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:48 pm

Cosentino’s in KC is great. It predated the streetcar, but a get like that would be a huge plus.

ita · Post by **ita** » Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:40 pm

Doctor Fate wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:22 pm Salt Lake City
Harmon's (In the CBD.)
Lee's Market (On the west end of downtown SLC, surrounded by residential. I used to live in this building.)

Harmon's looks good for a grocery store! I like this example because it is part of a newer mixed us development. I think that is the way we are going to get one in downtown.

Greg S · Post by **Greg S** » Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:26 pm

ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:06 pm
Greg S wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:17 pm
ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm Can you all point me to some successful urban grocery projects from other cities? I have searched some and many have not been completed. I know we point to DSM's downtown Hy-Vee, but you all have any other examples?
Cosentino's in downtown KC is awesome:

https://www.cosentinosmarket.com/stores ... own-market

Greg
OK, cool. I am not super familiar with KC development. Was the Power and Light district a result (maybe partially) because of the streetcar? I would love to see something like One Light/Cosentino's at that parking lot on 20th and Farnam.

No, Power and Light came first but the street car definitely enhanced it, connecting it to the River Market area to the north and Union Station area to the south. Now that they are extending it to the Plaza and Westport, the street car will be even better.

Greg

ita · Post by **ita** » Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:40 pm

Greg S wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:26 pm
ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:06 pm
Greg S wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:17 pm
ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:15 pm Can you all point me to some successful urban grocery projects from other cities? I have searched some and many have not been completed. I know we point to DSM's downtown Hy-Vee, but you all have any other examples?
Cosentino's in downtown KC is awesome:

https://www.cosentinosmarket.com/stores ... own-market

Greg
OK, cool. I am not super familiar with KC development. Was the Power and Light district a result (maybe partially) because of the streetcar? I would love to see something like One Light/Cosentino's at that parking lot on 20th and Farnam.
No, Power and Light came first but the street car definitely enhanced it, connecting it to the River Market area to the north and Union Station area to the south. Now that they are extending it to the Plaza and Westport, the street car will be even better.

Greg

Gotcha. The way I was reading about it One Light finished a year before the opening of the streetcar, but it seemed like the timing of announcements were really close.

TransitOriented · Post by **TransitOriented** » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:39 pm

ita wrote: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:31 pm I went through every single one, thanks! I definitely want to see one as part of a multi-use development, even more so now after looking at all of these.

Yeah and for those of us who have lived near some of these, this is why this topic keeps coming back up on this website. It's frustrating since it's a basic need for all humans. I don't really care that Omaha has the worst NFM in the world, but I do care that I have to stop and think for a second if it's closer to drive over to CB to buy groceries or Supermercado

garyomaha · Post by **garyomaha** » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:04 pm

Long ago (like in the 80s) I was visiting Seattle and went past a Safeway with several levels of apartments above. I was inspired then and I still am now. Why do we not have something like that in Omaha? Couldn't that work here in (or near) downtown? Seattle seemed to have residential-over-retail long before it started popping up in Omaha. (Though I have to chuckle because isn't that how most all stores were 100+ years ago?)

Greg S · Post by **Greg S** » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:43 pm

garyomaha wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:04 pm Long ago (like in the 80s) I was visiting Seattle and went past a Safeway with several levels of apartments above. I was inspired then and I still am now. Why do we not have something like that in Omaha? Couldn't that work here in (or near) downtown? Seattle seemed to have residential-over-retail long before it started popping up in Omaha. (Though I have to chuckle because isn't that how most all stores were 100+ years ago?)

I am assuming there is some sort of critical mass that we must hit as far as population for those stores to commit.

Greg