Omaha Streetcar Authority

[Coyote]

Omaha Streetcar Authority meets for the first time



'A big, big difference maker': Omaha Streetcar Authority meets for the first time

[ita]

Jay Noddle is the President. I didn't know he would be involved. Interesting.

Construction start eyed for 2024. Crossing fingers everything goes as planned.

[Athomsfere]

Jay Noddle is the President. I didn't know he would be involved. Interesting.

Construction start eyed for 2024. Crossing fingers everything goes as planned.

Isn't that a push back? I thought '23 was the optimistic start year?

But from memory, Noddle has been a great advocate for the street car line. As long as he doesn't do something dumb and try to run it to Aksarben for the first branch...

[skinzfan23]

I believe 2024 - 2025 has always been the plan for construction to start.

[Athomsfere]

I believe 2024 - 2025 has always been the plan for construction to start.

I might have been thinking about the design phase. 23-24 for design, and the 24-25 for construction to start.

[Busguy2010]

As long as he doesn't do something dumb and try to run it to Aksarben for the first branch...

I think that's a very possible and probable progression. I don't think it would be dumb. Maybe get the line done from UNMC to Downtown first, and in the process, plan to extend to Aksarben Village. It would only make sense. Noddle is Aksarben Village, and it would be dumb for him, as president, not to plan to have he streetcar serve his crown jewel development. The question is what route to take from UNMC to Aksarben. I think going the historic route is the right choice over Saddle Creek. The historic route is Leavenworth to 60th, to Woolworth, to 63rd. If not that exact route, then maybe Leavenworth to 60th, to Pacific, to 67th.

[bigredmed1]

63rd street would boost the value of those apartments by a ton. Get from your home to the old market without an effort beyond getting on and off the street car. UNMC to Ak would be great and pulling the streetcars off Leavenworth at the earliest opportunity would be great. Could you not just shoot down to Center and hit Ak village on the south end?

[Athomsfere]

As long as he doesn't do something dumb and try to run it to Aksarben for the first branch...

I think that's a very possible and probable progression. I don't think it would be dumb. Maybe get the line done from UNMC to Downtown first, and in the process, plan to extend to Aksarben Village. It would only make sense. Noddle is Aksarben Village, and it would be dumb for him, as president, not to plan to have he streetcar serve his crown jewel development. The question is what route to take from UNMC to Aksarben. I think going the historic route is the right choice over Saddle Creek. The historic route is Leavenworth to 60th, to Woolworth, to 63rd. If not that exact route, then maybe Leavenworth to 60th, to Pacific, to 67th.

And that was my point. Extension: Fine. Actually, great! Run it to West Roads too maybe.

But don't try and get it into the 1st phase. That sort of scope creep is what kills a lot of projects.

[Bomaha]

Yes, I realize we are going down an extension rabbit hole buuuuuttttttt, connecting to AV, I always had the idea of down Leavenworth to 57th through the roundabout and following Elmwood Park Rd through 67th to a terminus just at Baxterish. This would touch UNO, Elmwood Park, PKI, AV, and UNO South.

Regardless, excellent next step that has been made. Been a long time coming. Cannot wait to see the subequent milestones hit.

[Busguy2010]

Could you not just shoot down to Center and hit Ak village on the south end?

From an efficiency standpoint, I think streetcars need to stay mostly on lesser busy streets, which is why I said I didn't favor a Saddle Creek or Center Street alignment, because streetcars are slow.

Center is one of those main roads along with Dodge and Maple, that I feel are critical to maintain as is, if not increase capacity. I think Leavenworth could eat a streetcar line just fine.

[Busguy2010]

And that was my point. Extension: Fine. Actually, great! Run it to West Roads too maybe.

But don't try and get it into the 1st phase. That sort of scope creep is what kills a lot of projects.

I don't think we are going beyond 46th in the initial phase. I disagree with a mindset of extending this thing to the whole city essentially. I think Benson, Aksarben, South 24th, North 24th, Zoo, UNO, CB, are the effective extent of a streetcar system. Beyond that, we need light rail or BRT.

[Athomsfere]

And that was my point. Extension: Fine. Actually, great! Run it to West Roads too maybe.

But don't try and get it into the 1st phase. That sort of scope creep is what kills a lot of projects.

I don't think we are going beyond 46th in the initial phase. I disagree with a mindset of extending this thing to the whole city essentially. I think Benson, Aksarben, South 24th, North 24th, Zoo, UNO, CB, are the effective extent of a streetcar system. Beyond that, we need light rail or BRT.

I agree (partially), which is why I'm hoping the trains we choose could run both types of circuits.

Let the current plan be the first phase, and then add on. Whether it's new lines or extensions of the current proposed line.

The airport to downtown is still a great addition, IMO. Get visitors to town without cars. Maybe run that as a second line.
South O / the zoo would also be nice. Eppley to the Zoo as a second line might be perfect.

Westroads to me would be the western terminus for a long time. But also as a final phase, as it makes the least sense, but has merit.

[Busguy2010]

I agree (partially), which is why I'm hoping the trains we choose could run both types of circuits.

We might always disagree on that part. Streetcar systems and other types of rapid transit rail systems (light rail, third rail, commuter rail) each serve their different purposes. Streetcars do not have the capability of stretching out to farther the reaches of Omaha, and the overall efficiency of a hypothetical hybrid system would be nullified by the potential streetcar part of it.

It is beyond me why people don't understand this simple fact: streetcars travel at speeds of about 25-30 generally, and stop about every 1/3 mile, thus they are an inefficient rapid transit solution. They are a development and quality of life tool, not a transportation solution. i.e, I could catch the 15 or ORBT at 42nd & Farnam or Dodge and get to the Old Market probably five minutes quicker than this streetcar will.

We simply cannot try to mix streetcar and light rail by extending a streetcar beyond its effective range. By mixing, they would defeat the purpose of each other.

[skinzfan23]

100% agree, a streetcar is not designed to service the outstretch areas of downtown. I think the current streetcar loop is great, but other than some minor additions, this form of transportation wouldn't be warranted outside of this area. A light rail would be that option, but unfortunately, I don't think that will happen at least not for a very long time.

[Athomsfere]

We might always disagree on that part.

Quite likely

I do get that they aren't generally the same concept, and the streetcar was not my first choice. A LINK or Metro (Blue or Green) would be my choice... And those Flexity or S70 trains can run either duty type.

So to me, the perfect world is buy the right stock, expand it, then come back and do the grade separation where it makes sense.

Not that you and I likely agree on that

[Uffda]

Public transit consultant skeptical of Omaha's streetcar project

Tom Rubin knows a few things about public transportation and finance, having worked as the chief financial officer for the large transit system serving Los Angeles. And the Omaha native is skeptical of the plans for a streetcar in his hometown that he fears could financially run off the rails.

He’s concerned that rising inflation and interest rates could raise the cost of building the system and at the same time reduce the private development that’s being counted on to pay for it.

He questions why the city has not thought further about pursuing federal dollars to help defray the construction costs.

https://omaha.com/news/local/public-tra ... -top-story

[skinzfan23]

So basically this guy is saying that we need to do more studies….I am pretty sure there have been over 5 in-depth studies.

To be honest, no one truly knows, what works, or doesn’t work in one city might in another. I do feel like the Omaha line is well thought out and much better than Milwaukee’s for instance.

Also federal funding has been mentioned but that takes a long time and is a long drawn out process.

[nebport5]

Rubin makes some good points but I too feel there should not be a perpetual stream of money spent on more studies. I do agree it's worth pursuing federal funding in some capacity. I'm not expecting Omaha's line to approach KC's numbers but I think with Mutual and UNMC's stewardship the initial phase has a much greater probability of success than St. Louis or other lines that have struggled. I would bet Mutual already has a good idea of who they'd sell land to and what would likely be developed in their place. I would expect UNMC is in the know as well. Additionally, the streetcar will further increase interest in living in DTO. Even if a streetcar takes longer many people just don't like taking the bus(sorry Busguy).

[Omaha Cowboy]

“Fun” fact- since 2004, there have been 30 (THIRTY!) studies regarding streetcar feasibility for Omaha; at the cost of millions. It’s been studied to death for goodness sakes..

If this W-H article was written 20 years ago, when the paper still wielded power and influence in this state, I’d call it a project “hit piece”, lol. Now, not so much..and it’s too late. Seriously..

A couple of quotes from the article-

“”It concerns me that the city is moving full speed ahead,” said Rubin, who now lives in the San Francisco area and works as a transportation consultant. “I think they need to stop and say, ‘What are we trying to do, and what are the ways to do that?’””..

And-

“But Rubin, who acknowledges he is generally skeptical of streetcars, said he questions the Omaha streetcar’s ability to bring the development needed to fund the project.”..

To address the first quote, the city has FAR from moved “full speed ahead” with the development of a potential streetcar line. The latest evidence of this is the Omaha Chambers “Urban Core Committee” headed by Jay Noddle. The committee was formed in 2019, and has spent a significant amount of time determining “what are we trying to do, and what are the ways to do that”. Perhaps Mr Rubin didn’t get that memo..

The 2nd quote speaks volumes- the guy doesn’t trust streetcars! He’s “skeptical of them” (generally) lol. Give me a break. Combine this, with the fact he doesn’t even live in Omaha (and hasn’t for years apparently) makes me skeptical of his take. Why? Because he clearly sounds out of the loop (at least to me) as it relates to the development of this streetcar issue over the past 3-5 years..

In the end, I trust Jay Noddle’s involvement in this streetcar plan, and I appreciate Mutual of Omaha being bullish enough on Omaha and our downtown core to tie the streetcar line in with their HQ skyscraper development..

This W-H piece and Mr Rubin’s take are like throwing a paper airplane at a brick building and hoping it does damage. With all due respect to the W-H and to Mr Rubin, as it relates to this current streetcar line being proposed/developed for Omaha, that train has already left the station…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[skinzfan23]

Great points Cowboy, that was my feel from the article as well. Thankfully very few people read the paper especially in the younger demographic.

I know the guy is from Omaha but has he seen the change and forward thinking of some of today’s leaders in the city. We are finally getting to the stage where we aren’t happy with tearing down buildings just to put up a parking lot. There has been much more development in Omaha than most other midwestern cities could even dream of in the last 20 years since the arena and convention center were built.

I don’t know all the financial parts of the equation but as mentioned, we have done countless studies on it and waiting now will do nothing but increase the cost of building it yet once again. At this point I feel either we get it done now or what 50 years.

I still keep imagining being able to have a drink in Blackstone and then taking the streetcar back to the Old Market to another bar/restaurant all without having to move your car at all. Or how about parking for the CWS, concerts and Creighton games at CHI!

[Omaha Cowboy]

Great points Cowboy, that was my feel from the article as well. Thankfully very few people read the paper especially in the younger demographic.

I know the guy is from Omaha but has he seen the change and forward thinking of some of today’s leaders in the city. We are finally getting to the stage where we aren’t happy with tearing down buildings just to put up a parking lot. There has been much more development in Omaha than most other midwestern cities could even dream of in the last 20 years since the arena and convention center were built.

I don’t know all the financial parts of the equation but as mentioned, we have done countless studies on it and waiting now will do nothing but increase the cost of building it yet once again. At this point I feel either we get it done now or what 50 years.

I still keep imagining being able to have a drink in Blackstone and then taking the streetcar back to the Old Market to another bar/restaurant all without having to move your car at all. Or how about parking for the CWS, concerts and Creighton games at CHI!

Thanks and agreed. The W-H comment section is spewing with anti development and anti streetcar hate. What a bunch of clowns..

In any case, to your point, I also keep imagining the day when we can transport ourselves from one entertainment district/venue to another, without having to concern ourselves with our motor vehicles…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Athomsfere]

I'll also say, California isn't the example I want to follow. Where we are trying desperately to build decent mass transit because we are decades behind where we should be for our size and density.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I'll also say, California isn't the example I want to follow. Where we are trying desperately to build decent mass transit because we are decades behind where we should be for our size and density.

Especially from a guy who is an “ Omaha native” but now lives in California; has for quite a awhile..and is completely out of the loop with this current proposed streetcar line and how it ties in to other multiple proposed developments..

Grain of salt…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Busguy2010]

I'll also say, California isn't the example I want to follow. Where we are trying desperately to build decent mass transit because we are decades behind where we should be for our size and density.

Especially from a guy who is an “ Omaha native” but now lives in California; has for quite a awhile..and is completely out of the loop with this current proposed streetcar line and how it ties in to other multiple proposed developments..

Grain of salt…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

I will just be blunt because I don't have much time, but his points are full of bull pie. His argument is only a product of the last year or so's supply and inflation issues. Omaha finally can and should build this streetcar. I'd be happy to push this guy aside.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I'll also say, California isn't the example I want to follow. Where we are trying desperately to build decent mass transit because we are decades behind where we should be for our size and density.

Especially from a guy who is an “ Omaha native” but now lives in California; has for quite a awhile..and is completely out of the loop with this current proposed streetcar line and how it ties in to other multiple proposed developments..

Grain of salt…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

I will just be blunt because I don't have much time, but his points are full of bull pie. His argument is only a product of the last year or so's supply and inflation issues. Omaha finally can and should build this streetcar. I'd be happy to push this guy aside.

We don’t see eye to eye about our weather preferences..

But this we agree 100%…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[bigredmed1]

One question:. Given the large expense, why not just expand ORBT?

[Linkin5]

I feel like it’s already been exhaustively explained the difference between a streetcar and a BRT system.

[ita]

One question:. Given the large expense, why not just expand ORBT?

We are trying to do both; streetcar to serve as easy and fare free transportation in the urban core and additional BRT routes north to south on a couple major transportation corridors connecting longer distances (see MetroNEXT). OMetro's plan include higher priority future BRT routes along 24th Street (Ames to L St), 72nd St. (680 to L and possibly 370), and Broadway/1st Avenue to CHI/Jennie Edmundson hospital.

[bigredmed1]

I feel like it’s already been exhaustively explained the difference between a streetcar and a BRT system.

Not really. Just people like you screaming till everyone else stops listening. So, again, other than ego stroking the urbanists who can not stand that we don't have some toy that someone else has, how about we consider why redoing ancient technology that won't have the flexibility of a regular bus or even that of an ORBT bus is a good idea?

Seriously, no argument that we need more mass transit, but streetcars failed in the past because of the very problems they still face. Hard to add capacity for surges like CWS and infrastructure is very expensive and disruptive. I realize that my childhood experiences on Leavenworth street's old streetcar track addled pavement have been blanked from the current generation, but I assure you that one felt every bump when you went to LaCasas or UNMC/Clarkson. God help you if you used that road to go downtown. In other words, it was big money to put the tracks in, and even bigger money to make Leavenworth driveable/bike able decades after the streetcars were gone.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

I feel like it’s already been exhaustively explained the difference between a streetcar and a BRT system.

Not really. Just people like you screaming till everyone else stops listening. So, again, other than ego stroking the urbanists who can not stand that we don't have some toy that someone else has, how about we consider why redoing ancient technology that won't have the flexibility of a regular bus or even that of an ORBT bus is a good idea?

Seriously, no argument that we need more mass transit, but streetcars failed in the past because of the very problems they still face. Hard to add capacity for surges like CWS and infrastructure is very expensive and disruptive. I realize that my childhood experiences on Leavenworth street's old streetcar track addled pavement have been blanked from the current generation, but I assure you that one felt every bump when you went to LaCasas or UNMC/Clarkson. God help you if you used that road to go downtown. In other words, it was big money to put the tracks in, and even bigger money to make Leavenworth driveable/bike able decades after the streetcars were gone.

How antiquated are cars and buses at this point and how well are they doing for our cities?

A streetcar is permanent while cars and buses are not.

Streetcars are also more attractive to ride and have higher rider capacity. They serve European and Australian cities quite well.

Would you rather go to Disney World or Six Flags? To get transit ridership you need it to be appealing; you need to offer more of a Disney world than a six flags.

[nebport5]

I feel like it’s already been exhaustively explained the difference between a streetcar and a BRT system.

Not really. Just people like you screaming till everyone else stops listening. So, again, other than ego stroking the urbanists who can not stand that we don't have some toy that someone else has, how about we consider why redoing ancient technology that won't have the flexibility of a regular bus or even that of an ORBT bus is a good idea?

Seriously, no argument that we need more mass transit, but streetcars failed in the past because of the very problems they still face. Hard to add capacity for surges like CWS and infrastructure is very expensive and disruptive. I realize that my childhood experiences on Leavenworth street's old streetcar track addled pavement have been blanked from the current generation, but I assure you that one felt every bump when you went to LaCasas or UNMC/Clarkson. God help you if you used that road to go downtown. In other words, it was big money to put the tracks in, and even bigger money to make Leavenworth driveable/bike able decades after the streetcars were gone.

Streetcars "failed" because of the automobile. At the risk of breaking this down into an East vs West thing...I'm going to do it anyway. It's different strokes for different folks. Streetcars offer the antithesis of West O's car culture and instead encourage the walk/take a train European vibe that makes an individual choose to live in an urban Midtown/DTO. Streetcars are not a mass transit solution for Omaha. They are a solution to be less car dependent where they run. Modern streetcars are not antiquated. For antiquated streetcars see San Francisco or New Orleans. Furthermore, streetcars can and will create development that a BRT will not. Yes, us urbanists have been calling for this to reignite a long neglected urban core. They may be a novelty for tourists and West O folk but not for those of us who would use it on a daily basis. The novelty factor is also a good thing for tourists spending money and increasing tax revenue unlike a BRT. Yes streetcars are expensive but they are an investment that encourages more investment and development. BRT is not going to improve urban core amenities. Amenities say like a true urban grocery store that dare I say might draw some West O folks to relocate. Finally, streetcars and bikes coexist much better than cars and bikes. (See the Harney St rendering) I look forward to streetcars positively impacting the biking infrastructure as it is still rather dicey biking in Omaha's urban core.

[buildomaha]

I’m really hoping they find a way to separate the streetcar from automobile traffic. It will take the streetcar from simply a development tool into an actual effective form of transportation for Omaha.

[Louie]

I’m really hoping they find a way to separate the streetcar from automobile traffic. It will take the streetcar from simply a development tool into an actual effective form of transportation for Omaha.

Streetcar Expressway?

[nebugeater]

I feel like it’s already been exhaustively explained the difference between a streetcar and a BRT system.

Not really. Just people like you screaming till everyone else stops listening. So, again, other than ego stroking the urbanists who can not stand that we don't have some toy that someone else has, how about we consider why redoing ancient technology that won't have the flexibility of a regular bus or even that of an ORBT bus is a good idea?

Seriously, no argument that we need more mass transit, but streetcars failed in the past because of the very problems they still face. Hard to add capacity for surges like CWS and infrastructure is very expensive and disruptive. I realize that my childhood experiences on Leavenworth street's old streetcar track addled pavement have been blanked from the current generation, but I assure you that one felt every bump when you went to LaCasas or UNMC/Clarkson. God help you if you used that road to go downtown. In other words, it was big money to put the tracks in, and even bigger money to make Leavenworth driveable/bike able decades after the streetcars were gone.

How antiquated are cars and buses at this point and how well are they doing for our cities?

A streetcar is permanent while cars and buses are not.

Streetcars are also more attractive to ride and have higher rider capacity. They serve European and Australian cities quite well.

Would you rather go to Disney World or Six Flags? To get transit ridership you need it to be appealing; you need to offer more of a Disney world than a six flags.

If I take your "Streetcars are permanent" as fact, what happened to the streetcar system that was in place years ago?

[Bob from Omaha]

Hey, I've got an idea. Let's find someone who is clueless and stick his opinion on the front page. Yeah! Great idea! Next week let's find someone from Gambling With The Good Life & get their opinion.

[Busguy2010]

If I take your "Streetcars are permanent" as fact, what happened to the streetcar system that was in place years ago?

I recall reading from multiple sources that essentially it was a campaign coordinated by General Motors to decommission essentially all of America's streetcar systems with the intent to sell more cars and buses. They didn't go extinct because they were ineffective. Everybody rode them. It was the agenda by GM that destroyed Streetcar systems, and probably combined with the condition of the tracks, cars and other infrastructure (I mean, they were only first built in the late 1800's) made it easier just to scrap them. Well, that campaign worked marvelously for them, to the detriment of American culture. That created the car culture we live with today.

140 years later, we now have a lot better and more informed engineering practices so we wouldn't have the factor of poor maintenance engineering and maintenance to shorten the good useful life of a modern streetcar system.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Hey, I've got an idea. Let's find someone who is clueless and stick his opinion on the front page. Yeah! Great idea! Next week let's find someone from Gambling With The Good Life & get their opinion.

.

Shucks Bob.. It seems the W-H already beat you to it ..

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[TitosBuritoBarn]

I feel like it’s already been exhaustively explained the difference between a streetcar and a BRT system.

Not really. Just people like you screaming till everyone else stops listening. So, again, other than ego stroking the urbanists who can not stand that we don't have some toy that someone else has, how about we consider why redoing ancient technology that won't have the flexibility of a regular bus or even that of an ORBT bus is a good idea?

Seriously, no argument that we need more mass transit, but streetcars failed in the past because of the very problems they still face. Hard to add capacity for surges like CWS and infrastructure is very expensive and disruptive. I realize that my childhood experiences on Leavenworth street's old streetcar track addled pavement have been blanked from the current generation, but I assure you that one felt every bump when you went to LaCasas or UNMC/Clarkson. God help you if you used that road to go downtown. In other words, it was big money to put the tracks in, and even bigger money to make Leavenworth driveable/bike able decades after the streetcars were gone.

How antiquated are cars and buses at this point and how well are they doing for our cities?

A streetcar is permanent while cars and buses are not.

Streetcars are also more attractive to ride and have higher rider capacity. They serve European and Australian cities quite well.

Would you rather go to Disney World or Six Flags? To get transit ridership you need it to be appealing; you need to offer more of a Disney world than a six flags.

If I take your "Streetcars are permanent" as fact, what happened to the streetcar system that was in place years ago?

The tracks are still under the road buried in the asphalt.

My point is you can’t just up and move it one day like you can a bus stop.

[bigredmed1]

I feel like it’s already been exhaustively explained the difference between a streetcar and a BRT system.

Not really. Just people like you screaming till everyone else stops listening. So, again, other than ego stroking the urbanists who can not stand that we don't have some toy that someone else has, how about we consider why redoing ancient technology that won't have the flexibility of a regular bus or even that of an ORBT bus is a good idea?

Seriously, no argument that we need more mass transit, but streetcars failed in the past because of the very problems they still face. Hard to add capacity for surges like CWS and infrastructure is very expensive and disruptive. I realize that my childhood experiences on Leavenworth street's old streetcar track addled pavement have been blanked from the current generation, but I assure you that one felt every bump when you went to LaCasas or UNMC/Clarkson. God help you if you used that road to go downtown. In other words, it was big money to put the tracks in, and even bigger money to make Leavenworth driveable/bike able decades after the streetcars were gone.

How antiquated are cars and buses at this point and how well are they doing for our cities?

A streetcar is permanent while cars and buses are not.

Streetcars are also more attractive to ride and have higher rider capacity. They serve European and Australian cities quite well.

Would you rather go to Disney World or Six Flags? To get transit ridership you need it to be appealing; you need to offer more of a Disney world than a six flags.

If I take your "Streetcars are permanent" as fact, what happened to the streetcar system that was in place years ago?

The tracks are still under the road buried in the asphalt.

My point is you can’t just up and move it one day like you can a bus stop.

No, the Leavenworth tracks had to be removed at substantial expense because they kept popping through and messing with the cars, bikes, and motorcycles. What happened elsewhere I can't attest to.

There is nothing wrong with moving a bus stop. If having one at 50th works for 10 years till we find that 56th works better, moving it is a good thing.

So, the nut of my original question that seems to elude everyone, given the sizeable TIF request, and the fact that this sum could roll out a completed east west ORBT and a North South ORBT from Florence through Eppley, to downtown, and then to at least the zoo, if not farther, one needs to take a beat and ask why? Does the streetcar make sense?

[riceweb]

And there's no reason we can't make really nice buses. Electric. Nice seats with room to plop down a laptop. Good air conditioning. We could make our buses at least Caltrans train quality.

We could do that AND build a streetcar.

The thing with a streetcar is that there's a certain nostalgia about them. We're trying to make our community "feel" a certain way. Our streetcar should not be judged solely on cost and usage but rather how it shapes perceptions of our community.