Omaha Eppley Airfield - DISCUSSION

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Bob from Omaha
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

Mr.Nuke wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:58 pm
joleo wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:41 pm https://www.kcci.com/article/number-of- ... c/40589327

Looks like DSM finally exceed 2019 pre pandemic levels for June 2022. I wonder if OMA will as well?
Eppley did not. June up 7% year over year and up 36.6% YTD. That is off 11.8% versus June of 2019 and off 14% versus 1/1-6/30 vs. 2019.

https://www.flyoma.com/wp-content/uploa ... istics.pdf
I see other airports picking up frequencies & some picking up destinations. I get that there are staffing issues and other issues but I feel that OMA is not getting a little love from current airlines.

On the DSM board someone wondered about fall traffic as business travel isn't recovering. At least for DSM Allegiant is delivering large numbers.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by joleo »

Mr.Nuke wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:58 pm
joleo wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:41 pm https://www.kcci.com/article/number-of- ... c/40589327

Looks like DSM finally exceed 2019 pre pandemic levels for June 2022. I wonder if OMA will as well?
Eppley did not. June up 7% year over year and up 36.6% YTD. That is off 11.8% versus June of 2019 and off 14% versus 1/1-6/30 vs. 2019.

https://www.flyoma.com/wp-content/uploa ... istics.pdf
Do you have a breakdown by airline, June 2019 vs 2022 for Eppley? I wonder what is causing the seat count down? I don't think it's soutwest.

I think it's Alaska and United mainly? Maybe Delta as well.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Mr.Nuke »

joleo wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 5:41 pm Do you have a breakdown by airline, June 2019 vs 2022 for Eppley? I wonder what is causing the seat count down? I don't think it's soutwest.

I think it's Alaska and United mainly? Maybe Delta as well.
https://www.flyoma.com/wp-content/uploa ... istics.pdf

It is pretty much what you expected. Allegiant, American, and Southwest were all above their June 2019 numbers. Air Canada had a little over 2,000 in 2019. Alaska had 48% of their passengers on Skywest in 2019 for PDX (and I think they were still operating SAN at that time), so that largely explains their roughly 9,000 person dip. Delta is off about 23,000 passengers overall and 13,000 of those were mainline. United is off 23,000 as well, but mainline is actually up 5,000. Like Alaska, United obviously isn't flying to Newark or San Francisco.
Bob from Omaha wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:29 pm I see other airports picking up frequencies & some picking up destinations. I get that there are staffing issues and other issues but I feel that OMA is not getting a little love from current airlines.
At the same time, Omaha isn't missing much other than the aforementioned four routes.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

Mr.Nuke wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:32 pm
Bob from Omaha wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:29 pm I see other airports picking up frequencies & some picking up destinations. I get that there are staffing issues and other issues but I feel that OMA is not getting a little love from current airlines.
At the same time, Omaha isn't missing much other than the aforementioned four routes.
I'm interested to know the demand for the following routes:
San Diego
Portland
San Antonio
Austin
Philadelphia
Fort Lauderdale
Boston
New Orleans
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Mr.Nuke »

Bob from Omaha wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:32 pm
Mr.Nuke wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:32 pm
Bob from Omaha wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:29 pm I see other airports picking up frequencies & some picking up destinations. I get that there are staffing issues and other issues but I feel that OMA is not getting a little love from current airlines.
At the same time, Omaha isn't missing much other than the aforementioned four routes.
I'm interested to know the demand for the following routes:
San Diego
Portland
San Antonio
Austin
Philadelphia
Fort Lauderdale
Boston
New Orleans
My demand data lags about 6 months so we'd have to re-evaluate this if we are looking at right now towards the end of the year or early next year. With that said though, knowing Eppley is still off 14% versus 2019 for the year I think you can pretty much rule out anything that hadn't been served non-stop at that point right off the bat. Then you factor in the pilot shortage and the fact that a bunch of the 2019 regional airlines A) don't exist and b) if they do are scaled down. That bumps up the requirements for route viability significantly. Best guess is based on historical service and demand that Portland is probably there in the summer and San Diego in the winter for sure (surprised not to see it this Winter as well as TPA on SW).

Boston is seemingly still on the cusp. Philadelphia depends on if Frontier wants to take a chance on it again or not and or if AA wants to connect people through there again vs. Charlotte. Austin and San Antonio no. FLL is probably a no so long as American serves Miami seasonally.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

It just seems a shame that covid knocked so much off kilter. Prior to that OMA was on quite a roll.

I mentioned some of the above cities that were once on OMA's route map that to me seemed to be doing well. As for FLL it serves a somewhat different clientele than MIA. More north. With regard to BOS, I still can't understand the lack, though I understand that there are current day issues across the board.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by damonhynes »

If JetBlue decided to take a swing, FLL JFK BOS are considerations.

I wouldn't fly Frontier to anywhere but Denver and even then I'd have to be persuaded--their frequencies leave a lot to be desired.

AUS and SAT are different markets and demographics, I think Eppley's marketing staff needs to hit AUS hard.

Here's a longshot--LH started flying STL-FRA, it wouldn't surprise me to see UA do a well-timed OMA-STL flight to connect.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by ricko »

Bob from Omaha wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 2:32 pm
Mr.Nuke wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:32 pm
Bob from Omaha wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:29 pm I see other airports picking up frequencies & some picking up destinations. I get that there are staffing issues and other issues but I feel that OMA is not getting a little love from current airlines.
At the same time, Omaha isn't missing much other than the aforementioned four routes.
I'm interested to know the demand for the following routes:
San Diego
Portland
San Antonio
Austin
Philadelphia
Fort Lauderdale
Boston
New Orleans
I never see OKC or Tulsa mentioned. When I lived in OKC, I had to fly through Dallas, Houston, St. Louis, or worse. The geography nerd in me left me scratching my head, not to mention the 4 1/2 to 7 hours it would take me to get to Omaha. A non stop would’ve taken little over an hour.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Somedude »

Well it looks like Eppley will be expanding... Scope looks to consist of a modernization, renovation, and expansion of the existing OMA Eppley terminal facilities. The building’s current size will be doubled, new gates will be added, and the two concourses and checkpoints will be consolidated into one.

Construction is scheduled to commence in 2024 with an approximately 4-year total duration
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

Somedude wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:26 pm Well it looks like Eppley will be expanding... Scope looks to consist of a modernization, renovation, and expansion of the existing OMA Eppley terminal facilities. The building’s current size will be doubled, new gates will be added, and the two concourses and checkpoints will be consolidated into one.

Construction is scheduled to commence in 2024 with an approximately 4-year total duration
Old news unless you've heard something since april.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Mr.Nuke »

Bob from Omaha wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:31 am As for FLL it serves a somewhat different clientele than MIA. More north.
It is and it historically has had near equal demand to Miami from Omaha. 1st Quarter 2022 PDEW to FLL was 50.5, a bit off compared to pre-pandemic PDEWS in Q1 2018 of 65 and Q1 2019 of 70. Miami (MIA) 2022 PDEW in Q1 was 56. The difference is American has the ability to connect passengers at a hub making that route more viable. Kansas City's PDEW for FLL was 153 for Q1 2022 and they see year-round service on Southwest and seasonal service on Spirit. 65 or 70 though 2 quarters out of the year probably isn’t going to cut it when Southwest, the most viable option would like to fill a 737.
Bob from Omaha wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:31 am With regard to BOS, I still can't understand the lack, though I understand that there are current day issues across the board.
Q1 was off this year for some reason only 40 so it needs to be watched to see if that was an anomaly or a trend. At 40 though, that isn’t a currently viable route…2018 average PDEW was 88, 2019 was 87. Last year's Q3 pdew was 80 so close to previous year averages. Those 2018 and 2019 numbers were in the range that someone should've been interested.
damonhynes wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:50 pm If JetBlue decided to take a swing, FLL JFK BOS are considerations.
JetBlue is presumably going to be busy for a while trying to consummate their merger with Spirit. The unfortunate thing near term is that probably ends the NEA with American. It isn’t clear that the NEA was going to fly either as it is currently being challenged in the courts. However, I think that was Omaha’s near-term chance to get Boston on American…
damonhynes wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:50 pm AUS and SAT are different markets and demographics, I think Eppley's marketing staff needs to hit AUS hard.
Both of been tried before, and the numbers aren’t quite there from a demand side to justify service right now.
damonhynes wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:50 pm Here's a longshot--LH started flying STL-FRA, it wouldn't surprise me to see UA do a well-timed OMA-STL flight to connect.
It would me...
ricko wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:44 pm I never see OKC or Tulsa mentioned. When I lived in OKC, I had to fly through Dallas, Houston, St. Louis, or worse. The geography nerd in me left me scratching my head, not to mention the 4 1/2 to 7 hours it would take me to get to Omaha. A non stop would’ve taken little over an hour.
It is because is virtually no demand. Oklahoma City averages about 6-7 passengers daily each way and Tulsa doesn’t have data from 2005 on meaning there are less than 5 passengers daily each way.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by ricko »

Mr.Nuke wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:54 pm
Bob from Omaha wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:31 am As for FLL it serves a somewhat different clientele than MIA. More north.
It is and it historically has had near equal demand to Miami from Omaha. 1st Quarter 2022 PDEW to FLL was 50.5, a bit off compared to pre-pandemic PDEWS in Q1 2018 of 65 and Q1 2019 of 70. Miami (MIA) 2022 PDEW in Q1 was 56. The difference is American has the ability to connect passengers at a hub making that route more viable. Kansas City's PDEW for FLL was 153 for Q1 2022 and they see year-round service on Southwest and seasonal service on Spirit. 65 or 70 though 2 quarters out of the year probably isn’t going to cut it when Southwest, the most viable option would like to fill a 737.
Bob from Omaha wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:31 am With regard to BOS, I still can't understand the lack, though I understand that there are current day issues across the board.
Q1 was off this year for some reason only 40 so it needs to be watched to see if that was an anomaly or a trend. At 40 though, that isn’t a currently viable route…2018 average PDEW was 88, 2019 was 87. Last year's Q3 pdew was 80 so close to previous year averages. Those 2018 and 2019 numbers were in the range that someone should've been interested.
damonhynes wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:50 pm If JetBlue decided to take a swing, FLL JFK BOS are considerations.
JetBlue is presumably going to be busy for a while trying to consummate their merger with Spirit. The unfortunate thing near term is that probably ends the NEA with American. It isn’t clear that the NEA was going to fly either as it is currently being challenged in the courts. However, I think that was Omaha’s near-term chance to get Boston on American…
damonhynes wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:50 pm AUS and SAT are different markets and demographics, I think Eppley's marketing staff needs to hit AUS hard.
Both of been tried before, and the numbers aren’t quite there from a demand side to justify service right now.
damonhynes wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:50 pm Here's a longshot--LH started flying STL-FRA, it wouldn't surprise me to see UA do a well-timed OMA-STL flight to connect.
It would me...
ricko wrote: Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:44 pm I never see OKC or Tulsa mentioned. When I lived in OKC, I had to fly through Dallas, Houston, St. Louis, or worse. The geography nerd in me left me scratching my head, not to mention the 4 1/2 to 7 hours it would take me to get to Omaha. A non stop would’ve taken little over an hour.
It is because is virtually no demand. Oklahoma City averages about 6-7 passengers daily each way and Tulsa doesn’t have data from 2005 on meaning there are less than 5 passengers daily each way.
How do they calculate this if there are no direct flights? I’m not arguing with you, I’m just curious.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Mr.Nuke »

I haven’t done this for a while, but here are Q1 2022 PDEWs for Eppley
Phoenix 364
Las Vegas 233
Orlando 227
Denver 210
Dallas/Fort Worth 165
Los Angeles 165
Chicago 163
Washington D.C. 123
Atlanta 116
Miami 107
Tampa 105
New York City 101
Houston 99
Fort Myers 83
Seattle 76
San Francisco 64
San Diego 60
Salt Lake City 60
Minneapolis 58
Nashville 49
Detroit 42
San Antonio 41
Charlotte 41
Boston 40
St. Louis 39
Austin 32
New Orleans 32
Portland 32
Philadelphia 32
Sanford 30
Punta Gorda 28
Jacksonville 26
Pam Springs 26
Sacramento 25
Tucson 25
Raleigh Durham 24
Sarasota/Bradenton 22
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by thenewguy »

PDEW: Passengers per Day Each Way (I had to Google it :p )
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

Here's my thing. Pre covid OMA did 5,043,194 total pax. If one does the math it works out to a much larger load per plane and lots of new destinations. What I'm getting at is yes, PDEW is a factor but is it not also possible that a destination such as Portland or San Diego being offered non stop has the ability to generate a larger demand for seats than if it were simply offered as a connection? Something drove the total to over 5 million yet I bet that had we looked at pdew solely we may not have seen such numbers possible or probable.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by blueblood »

I fly to SF often. I have booked the direct multiple times on United only to have it changed to connecting in Denver as the flight gets closer. So I have a direct SF to Omaha on Sept 6. It still shows direct! Hopefully I did not just jinx it.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by TransitOriented »

blueblood wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:08 pm I fly to SF often. I have booked the direct multiple times on United only to have it changed to connecting in Denver as the flight gets closer. So I have a direct SF to Omaha on Sept 6. It still shows direct! Hopefully I did not just jinx it.
I've been routing through LAX to avoid that.

Regarding the PDEW and demand, in my opinion as a regular Joe, the pricing for flights is too high and people are just driving to places somewhat nearby. I'm waiting to go to San Diego, but not at these prices.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by jjjjhskr »

TransitOriented wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:27 pm
blueblood wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:08 pm I fly to SF often. I have booked the direct multiple times on United only to have it changed to connecting in Denver as the flight gets closer. So I have a direct SF to Omaha on Sept 6. It still shows direct! Hopefully I did not just jinx it.
I've been routing through LAX to avoid that.

Regarding the PDEW and demand, in my opinion as a regular Joe, the pricing for flights is too high and people are just driving to places somewhat nearby. I'm waiting to go to San Diego, but not at these prices.
Heck, anymore I’d be happy if we could get another airline flying between OMA and MSP to break the Delta monopoly and lower fares.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Dundeemaha »

TransitOriented wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:27 pm
blueblood wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:08 pm I fly to SF often. I have booked the direct multiple times on United only to have it changed to connecting in Denver as the flight gets closer. So I have a direct SF to Omaha on Sept 6. It still shows direct! Hopefully I did not just jinx it.
I've been routing through LAX to avoid that.

Regarding the PDEW and demand, in my opinion as a regular Joe, the pricing for flights is too high and people are just driving to places somewhat nearby. I'm waiting to go to San Diego, but not at these prices.
We flew direct to LAX and took the train to San Diego rather than a layover. Was a fantastic alternative, renting a car would be great too compared to the hassle of a layover.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bearcat06 »

jjjjhskr wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:04 pm
TransitOriented wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:27 pm
blueblood wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:08 pm I fly to SF often. I have booked the direct multiple times on United only to have it changed to connecting in Denver as the flight gets closer. So I have a direct SF to Omaha on Sept 6. It still shows direct! Hopefully I did not just jinx it.
I've been routing through LAX to avoid that.

Regarding the PDEW and demand, in my opinion as a regular Joe, the pricing for flights is too high and people are just driving to places somewhat nearby. I'm waiting to go to San Diego, but not at these prices.
Heck, anymore I’d be happy if we could get another airline flying between OMA and MSP to break the Delta monopoly and lower fares.

That'd be nice and you'd think something right up Southwest's playbook, but it appears Delta typically flies the Embraer 175 between OMA/MSP and there is likely no way SW runs a 737 between the two given it'd be about twice the capacity of the ERJ 175.

UA would probably consider ORD too close of a hub to run an OMA/MSP direct. Not sure what AA would think, other than would it be profitable enough to start that route.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by damonhynes »

jjjjhskr wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:04 pm
TransitOriented wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:27 pm
blueblood wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:08 pm I fly to SF often. I have booked the direct multiple times on United only to have it changed to connecting in Denver as the flight gets closer. So I have a direct SF to Omaha on Sept 6. It still shows direct! Hopefully I did not just jinx it.
I've been routing through LAX to avoid that.

Regarding the PDEW and demand, in my opinion as a regular Joe, the pricing for flights is too high and people are just driving to places somewhat nearby. I'm waiting to go to San Diego, but not at these prices.
Heck, anymore I’d be happy if we could get another airline flying between OMA and MSP to break the Delta monopoly and lower fares.
It's been a monopoly ever since the Braniff days. When BN went BK, North Central took over nonstop, although they had milk-runs before 1982.

It seems strange that you can get to DEN on three carriers and have for some time, but not MSP.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

MSP is a fortress hub. A cursory look at the MSP web site shows a lot of cities ( didnt check every city served) have only DL service to MSP. Nuke is the pro but I seriously doubt anyone gives it a shot between OMA and MSP other than DL.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

damonhynes wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:38 pm
jjjjhskr wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:04 pm
TransitOriented wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:27 pm
blueblood wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:08 pm I fly to SF often. I have booked the direct multiple times on United only to have it changed to connecting in Denver as the flight gets closer. So I have a direct SF to Omaha on Sept 6. It still shows direct! Hopefully I did not just jinx it.
I've been routing through LAX to avoid that.

Regarding the PDEW and demand, in my opinion as a regular Joe, the pricing for flights is too high and people are just driving to places somewhat nearby. I'm waiting to go to San Diego, but not at these prices.
Heck, anymore I’d be happy if we could get another airline flying between OMA and MSP to break the Delta monopoly and lower fares.
It's been a monopoly ever since the Braniff days. When BN went BK, North Central took over nonstop, although they had milk-runs before 1982.

It seems strange that you can get to DEN on three carriers and have for some time, but not MSP.
United and Frontier have hubs at DIA and Southwest is huge there. That's why.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Mr.Nuke »

ricko wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:16 pm How do they calculate this if there are no direct flights? I’m not arguing with you, I’m just curious.
No it is a really good question. Prior to the late 70's airlines were regulated by the Federal government. The CAB had to approve any route, attempting to promote service to markets and limiting competition to help airlines, and set minimum limits fares on existing routes. In order to do this they needed data on where people wanted to travel and what the airfares to those places was.

The government required airlines to give detailed data including full itinerary's i.e. where the passenger started, where they ended up, where they may have connected through, and what they paid for on a random non biased 10% of their total passengers (this randomness is completed by airlines handing over all of the data on tickets ending in 0). For whatever reason, this data is still collected post deregulation giving us a very good insight into the domestic U.S. air market. It is collected quarterly and multiplied by a factor of ten to get the PDEW data I posted earlier in this week. Any route from Omaha with at least 5 passengers daily each way will show up.

It isn't perfect for a couple of reasons though. A ten percent sample size is pretty significant and should be representative at an airport like Eppley (it may under count small airports or thin demand routes). However, the data lags significantly i.e. I only have data through March and we are in August right now. It also is fairly broad in scope. Passengers daily for an entire quarter is a high level picture. It may be hiding something i.e. even though Nashville had 41 passengers daily each way, Saturday itself may have 90 or 100 justifying a weekend flight, etc.

It also can conceal the true demand to given market to an extent. I'll address Minneapolis more this weekend, but the true market demand there is probably slightly higher, but people don't fly it due to Delta's pricing. Or if there was a non-stop route again on say Omaha to San Diego you could make a fairly strong argument that more people would be flying to there, etc. Again it is telling us how many people flew to a given place not why they didn't.

Circling back to your question though, we essentially have access to decades of data for 10% of air travelers in a given quarter. Seeing Tulsa or Oklahoma City show up in that data infrequently is a really good sign to me that there are less than 5 people flying between Oklahoma City and Omaha and or Omaha and Tulsa on any given day.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by ricko »

Mr.Nuke wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:53 pm
ricko wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:16 pm How do they calculate this if there are no direct flights? I’m not arguing with you, I’m just curious.
No it is a really good question. Prior to the late 70's airlines were regulated by the Federal government. The CAB had to approve any route, attempting to promote service to markets and limiting competition to help airlines, and set minimum limits fares on existing routes. In order to do this they needed data on where people wanted to travel and what the airfares to those places was.

The government required airlines to give detailed data including full itinerary's i.e. where the passenger started, where they ended up, where they may have connected through, and what they paid for on a random non biased 10% of their total passengers (this randomness is completed by airlines handing over all of the data on tickets ending in 0). For whatever reason, this data is still collected post deregulation giving us a very good insight into the domestic U.S. air market. It is collected quarterly and multiplied by a factor of ten to get the PDEW data I posted earlier in this week. Any route from Omaha with at least 5 passengers daily each way will show up.

It isn't perfect for a couple of reasons though. A ten percent sample size is pretty significant and should be representative at an airport like Eppley (it may under count small airports or thin demand routes). However, the data lags significantly i.e. I only have data through March and we are in August right now. It also is fairly broad in scope. Passengers daily for an entire quarter is a high level picture. It may be hiding something i.e. even though Nashville had 41 passengers daily each way, Saturday itself may have 90 or 100 justifying a weekend flight, etc.

It also can conceal the true demand to given market to an extent. I'll address Minneapolis more this weekend, but the true market demand there is probably slightly higher, but people don't fly it due to Delta's pricing. Or if there was a non-stop route again on say Omaha to San Diego you could make a fairly strong argument that more people would be flying to there, etc. Again it is telling us how many people flew to a given place not why they didn't.

Circling back to your question though, we essentially have access to decades of data for 10% of air travelers in a given quarter. Seeing Tulsa or Oklahoma City show up in that data infrequently is a really good sign to me that there are less than 5 people flying between Oklahoma City and Omaha and or Omaha and Tulsa on any given day.
Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I had to rack my brain to understand the lack of traffic between the 2 metros. Both are medium sized metro areas, but even though they are in Plains states, they are very different with regard to their respective industries, so that leads me to believe that there would be very little business traffic between them.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Mr.Nuke »

blueblood wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 4:08 pm I fly to SF often. I have booked the direct multiple times on United only to have it changed to connecting in Denver as the flight gets closer. So I have a direct SF to Omaha on Sept 6. It still shows direct! Hopefully I did not just jinx it.
I still think the fact it changed to an actual mainline plane overnighting in Omaha bodes well for it actually resuming this time.
ricko wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:46 am Thanks for taking the time to explain this. I had to rack my brain to understand the lack of traffic between the 2 metros. Both are medium sized metro areas, but even though they are in Plains states, they are very different with regard to their respective industries, so that leads me to believe that there would be very little business traffic between them.
Exactly on the last part and with having to connect somewhere to get there driving becomes an attractive proposition.
jjjjhskr wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 10:04 pm Heck, anymore I’d be happy if we could get another airline flying between OMA and MSP to break the Delta monopoly and lower fares.
damonhynes wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:38 pm It seems strange that you can get to DEN on three carriers and have for some time, but not MSP.
Like Bob said it is a hub for all practical purposes for all 3 airlines that serve it. In addition, again as evidenced in the above PDEW data it is also a significantly bigger O/D market for Omaha than Minneapolis.
It simply isn't a big enough market to do that.
Bob from Omaha wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:31 pm MSP is a fortress hub. A cursory look at the MSP web site shows a lot of cities ( didnt check every city served) have only DL service to MSP. Nuke is the pro but I seriously doubt anyone gives it a shot between OMA and MSP other than DL.
Your first sentence basically sums it up, but this was a longer post that I wrote in 2016 in this thread when a similar notion was brought up. The PDEW numbers and yield data is going to be different, but the points remain the same.
joleo wrote: I really want Southwest to start Omaha to MSP. Right now, only 55 people fly each way as was mentioned above but prices are horribly expensive. If Southwest were to start this, I would expect that 55 people to go to 200-250 people easy! It is a very short flight but it's a 6-hour drive having to go through Des Moines. There is no direct angled highway.
I don’t think it is that simple. If we were to pro-con this really the only pro is a consumer based issue and no so much an airline/profitability issue. The obvious perceived pro is that Southwest offering a flight to Minneapolis would lower prices on the route. I’d agree. There is little doubt that Delta and Northwest before the merger has enjoyed a pricing premium on the direct flight. That said, while I’ve seen outrageous prices on this route in particular and paid an asinine amount for a family member that needed specific dates around Christmas, checking random dates over the next three months for a 2 night stay I was mildly impressed. On average, the direct flights were $300-$400 most days with the lowest I found being $280. On some trips were Delta was offering roughly $400, United was offering about $20 less. That said, United’s total travel time including a layover in O’Hare was 4 to 4 and a half hours, largely negating the option to drive. Q4 DOT data indicated an average fare paid of $361 on the route.

The cons for Southwest entering the market are numerous and by no means not limited to the following.
The drive- as someone who makes said trip about once a year at least, it isn’t that bad. From airport to airport it is 378 miles. With a 70 mph speed limit in Iowa and Minnesota, if you drive the limit that is under 5 and a half hours. Average 5 mph over the limit and it is 5 hours flat. Denver and Chicago an hour or two further away.

Lack of O/D Demand- This isn’t trivial. 55 PDEW is low. Is some of the price related where people are seeing $400 prices and weighing it versus about $60-70 worth of gasoline? Probably. But nowhere near the 200-250 that you think would magically start flying if Southwest added a single flight. Furthermore, you have to pry those 55 away by presumably offering lower prices. Great for the consumer, not great for the airline.

Lack of connections- Most of Omaha’s Southwest routes set up natural connections. From Midway you can go a ton of places one stop. From Denver, Las Vegas or Phoenix you can connect to California and the West. From St. Louis multiple East/Southeast options. From Texas the same as well as the international destinations from the new Houston flight. Of Southwest's 9 full season scheduled destinations, they fly to 4 of them already. Atlanta and Baltimore can easily be connected to from Midway and St. Louis. And I don't see many people flying from Omaha to Minneapolis to go to Kansas City. This is something that really kills viability because as we’ll see with Delta, they’re not flying Omaha to Minneapolis for O/D traffic. They’re really only doing it to connect people to a hub.

PDEW vs. actual seats- We established in Q4 of 2015 on average there were 55 passengers flying daily each way O/D for OMA-MSP. In that same quarter, Delta few an average of 503 seats to MSP and 503 seats from MSP to Omaha daily. Of those 411 seats on average daily OMA-MSP were occupied and 409 MSP-OMA. That is an 81% load factor, something that will come into play later.

What this tells is that if there were 110 total O/D daily passengers (PDEW X 2) and roughly 774 total passengers flying Omaha to Minneapolis and Minneapolis to Omaha daily, only 14% of the passenger’s at best on Delta’s flights in Q4 were O/D. The other 86% were connecting to somewhere other than MSP or coming to Omaha from somewhere other than MSP. In other words, on a 100 seat fully filled plane only 14 people on that flight were actually going to Minneapolis on average. The other way of looking at this is Delta is operating 7 flights from OMA-->MSP tomorrow. If our 55 PDEW are distributed evenly you’d expect only roughly 8 passengers on each of the 7 flights to have MSP as their final destination. This ties back strongly to the previous two bullets about a lack of O/D traffic and SW’s inability for connecting traffic at MSP.

Load Factor/ Seat capacity and Delta’s obvious response if Southwest entered the market- As mentioned above, in Q4 Delta’s combined load factor for both flights to Minneapolis and from Minneapolis to Omaha was roughly 81%. This also means on average they had 94 seats unsold per day or over the 7 flights they’ll operate tomorrow (we’ll see what their winter capacity ends up being on the route) you’d expect an average of 13 empty seats per generic flight.

If Southwest were to hypothetically launch a flight on ~140 seat 737, Delta has so much extra capacity on the route with those 94 seats that they could massively undercut them. This is taking it to the extreme a bit, but it illustrates my point. Delta is operating those 7 flights for frequency to its hub regardless. At an 81% load factor they literally have 94 seats they could sell for $1 or $5 or some trivial amount of money that would keep you from thinking about booking your ticket with Southwest on the route. Plus, they have 7 different times you can choose from to Southwest’s one flight.

If this was a market that had quadruple the o/d demand or if Southwest had a hub (and there are legitimate factors from keeping that from happening at MSP: Delta protecting a fortress hub, two LCCs in the market already with Spirit and home team Sun Country) then it would be a different story.
viewtopic.php?p=265611&hilit=Minneapoli ... st#p265611
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Mr.Nuke »

United appears to have updated their schedule again. SFO is downgraded to Embrarer 175 and now starts on the 9/7 instead of 9/6 Again hopefully with it less than a month out now this will stick.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by blueblood »

My Dec 6 SF to Omaha on United still shows me as direct
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

Nuke, I've been wondering something. When OMA went over 5MM, I thought there was pent up demand that PDEW was missing. Price elasticity. New non stop flights attracting new fliers. A hot economy. Something.

At the time OMA was seeing a future with 7MM pax.

Am I on the right track? What are your thoughts? I know that right now it's all moot but still. If one needs to rely on the PDEW numbers how does OMA get back to 5MM and more?
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Mr.Nuke »

July up 1.6%, 29.4% YTD.
https://www.flyoma.com/wp-content/uploa ... istics.pdf

Bob, time pending I do want to try and respond to a couple of your recent posts if I get the chance, no promises that it happens or that the answers make sense :D .
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skinzfan23
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by skinzfan23 »

Those numbers seem pretty low, up only 1.6% from last year.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by ita »

skinzfan23 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:01 pm Those numbers seem pretty low, up only 1.6% from last year.
Looking back to July 2019 number, we are about 89% back to prepandemic for July. So, from the perspective, that's pretty good, in light of the current economic climate we are in.

I think there are several factors at play with the 2021 vs. 2022 numbers. 2021 had pent up demand that was just released; people started travelling again because pandemic number waned and we had just started getting vaccines. People were in a good, maybe better place financially; a lot of people received covid relief funds that were either a lifeline or padding to your paycheck. Airline tickets were better priced; based on what I've seen, prices during summers months are somewhere between 30-50% higher. Throw in the inflation that is putting a strain on everyone's wallets and I am not too surprised about the middling increase year over year in July.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by blueblood »

blueblood wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:01 am My Sept 6 SF to Omaha on United still shows me as direct
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by jjjjhskr »

Direct is not the same as non-stop
Back Home in Omaha!
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bob from Omaha »

Another question for Nuke.

In July Allegiant carried the most passengers at DSM. I do not begrudge DSM for its Allegiant success. They now have 17 non stop destinations via Allegiant, including LAX, Orange County and Palm Springs. Now, I get that none of these are daily flights and most are once or twice a week. On the other hand, prior to Allegiant coming to DSM was there really PDEW to justify both LAX and Orange County? Was there enough PDEW to justify all 17 non stop destinations? I don't have any stats other than what's posted on the DSM web site thus I don't know the load factors but it seems that Allegiant has tapped into something at DSM and other smaller airports such as Grand Rapids, Michigan and others.

Your thoughts Nuke?
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bearcat06 »

KCI trying to make a bid for a non-stop route to London noting their catchment area includes about 5 million potential passengers within 2.5 hours of KCI with no other competitive airports within 3 hours.

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/kc ... of-midwest
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by almighty_tuna »

That would be pretty slick
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by blueblood »

jjjjhskr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:54 pm Direct is not the same as non-stop

It shows flight time as 3 hours 25 minutes so that would be nonstop
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by riceweb »

You'd think with WFH, it would be paramount to offer multiple, nonstop flights to SFO/OAK. It makes for a long day, but with an early flight in and a late flight out, you could actually commute from Omaha, at least to catch a day of meetings once every few months.
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Re: Omaha Eppley Airfield

Post by Bearcat06 »

Eppley employee snapped a pic of the plane the Huskers left for Ireland on. They noted it was an Airbus A330-300. A bit surprised they flew out of OMA as LNK has a long enough runway and I wouldn't think another 60 miles would be an issue for that plane, but maybe it was the international flight and OMA was able to have flights to/from Toronto for a time?


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