Omaha Streetcar Discussion

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:00 pm

The one word I would use to describe the difference between streetcars and buses is legibility. Streetcars just seem to have a more visible presence, are easily understandable and recognized, and a have proven historical track record.

scraper · Post by **scraper** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:09 pm

Fair enough responses.

SaOmaha · Post by **SaOmaha** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:42 pm

I do agree with Zephyr, StreetsOfOmaha and others on the role of Street Car Line in Omaha. More Later.

Saturday UNMCStudent made this observation:

UNMCStudent wrote:
SaOmaha wrote: I love to see a personal monorail system honeycomb Omaha with its car-like on-demand none-stop point to point (station to station) service. It would replace most none-shopping auto trips and you get there faster. Also promise to cost less per mile than trolley/light rail. In other word this city could be honeycombed for the price of a single trolley/light rail cross town line with no government money involved.
A personal transportation system...that is built on a honeycomb network, which will take an individual directly, non-stop, to their desired specific location in a personal carriage.

That sounds a lot like...oh...I don't know....an AUTOMOBILE.

AUTOMOBILE!... that exactly what Skytran/Personal Monorail system are design to imitate and compete against without cost, maintenance, storage, operation of a personal car, as while the hassle of finding a parking spot. (you may need car for out of town trips).

Similarly Trolley/Streetcar/Light Rail imitate a bus or group of buses that run on fixed route, and at times on a fixed schedule but far more fun to ride than a bus.

In my opinion, light rail and commuting trains, which Omaha may never get, are all about commuting to work while Trolley and Streetcars are about development and tourism, althought the functions can overlap.

One possible streetcar/trolley system for development is a Creighton University - Qwest Center Omaha, - Old Market - Joslyn Art Museum Loop with branches to UNMC and to the zoo.

I would like to see a Skytran/Personal Monorail system built in Omaha when the technology is available.

This morning Omaha World Herald Public Pulse has two items on mass transportation:
“Use new technology” (on skytran system) and “On streetcars”

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=610&u_sid=2098882

ModestMouse · Post by **ModestMouse** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:01 am

I am sorry.

But this subject got me to FINALLY register.

You want to include UNMC, Creighton, the Old Market, The Zoo but not UNO?

Do you realize the amount of use those kids will get out of using that? The campus is trying to become more traditional, they FINALLY got enough space for about 2000 kids to shack up on campus and you expect them to be left out of this?

The campus needs public transport, it needs something that is on time and will take them places, be it this or some other form. The Trolly has to happen because the public transport in town is just horrible, if we expect Omaha to grow bigger and to be a great first tier city there has to be some sort of reliable public transport there is no bones about it.

The Trolly will do well economically for the area but hopefully that will start a light commuter line, I'd love to have a light commuter line in town cause then that'd mean I wouldn't have to drive my car and that saves me money. I'd rather pay 30-40 dollars a month on subway tokens then 100+ dollars on gas.

eomaha · Post by **eomaha** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:37 am

You're not alone on that think mouse ... and welcome to the forum.

SaOmaha · Post by **SaOmaha** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:45 am

ModestMouse, you have a good point, UNO should included in any Trolley system long range plan. Its take time and money to build up a system. First the downtown loop (Creighton University - Qwest Center Omaha, - Old Market - Joslyn Art Museum) should probably be built, then branches in stages: east to UNMU, than UNO; South to Durham Western Heritage Museum, next to grace University, than Zoo; north toward the Airport.

It all depends on the group that finally builds the system.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:35 pm

That's what I've been saying (about UNO). In fact I was just bitching about that to someone yesterday.

Harpoon · Post by **Harpoon** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:28 am

Before they go and expand this streetcar out to the hinterlands it is a good idea to build a first phase that will be highly successful. I am sure that UNO or the zoo might be in the long range plans, but you get the most bang for your buck downtown and in the Old Market. Once the first line is up and running and people see how much development it has spurred, then and only then will it start to expand further from the downtown core. If the first phase isn't successful (which is highly doubtful), we won't see any expansions. But to reach UNO, although I agree it would be a great amenity for their campus, it is going to be a very long time. Leavenworth to Elmwood Park would be the most logical connection to access that area when the time comes for it to occur.

Big E · Post by **Big E** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:55 am

Has anyone proposed an actual route for the streetcar yet? I've seen numerous lists of destinations, but is there anything saying "down X St to Y St, left to Z St, etc."?

-Big E

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:17 am

Modest Mouse,
I personally worked with Doug Bisson when he and his team were putting the Destination Midtown plan together, of which all this streetcar news is a direct result, and YOU BET YOUR |expletive| they want to connect that thing to UNO! It wouldn't be in the first, or maybe even second phase, but it will happen. Doug was also instrumental in the design and planning for the Aksarben property master plan, and he DEFINITELY had streetcars in mind.

Anyway, some of you are still making the mistake of distinguishing between streetcars and lightrail. A STREETCAR IS LIGHT RAIL. A FORM OF LIGHTRAIL. Just like a robin is a bird.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:16 pm

And a 'doubting Thomas' story from today's W-H:

'But a streetcar proposal for Omaha's downtown area is prompting questions about the expense and whether there is a need for streetcars here.

"I'm skeptical," said City Councilman Chuck Sigerson.

Sigerson said it would be nice to have a streetcar system, but he wouldn't want the City of Omaha to get stuck paying to build it or subsidizing the cost of running it.

Portland says streetcar ridership has more than doubled since the system began five years ago. Each weekday, the streetcars provide an average of 9,000 rides.

But Portland is not Omaha.

Portland can draw from a larger population to fill its streetcars with riders. The Portland metropolitan area has about 2 million people, more than double the 800,000 in the Omaha-Council Bluffs metro area.'..

The complete story link:

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_pg=1636&u_sid=2100559

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

jjjjhskr · Post by **jjjjhskr** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:30 pm

[quote="Omaha Cowboy"]But Portland is not Omaha.

The tag line for the World Herald should be -

Omaha....we're not (fill in the blank)

The World Herald spends a lot of time following up positive news searching for people who who don't agree or think the exact opposite. ex. 1 Fahey's comments on diversity - you could just as easily found
people who think Omaha is diverse and open.
ex. 2 The streetcars - obviously people have found out that Street cars help make you an "it" city and spur growth.
ex 3 All the negatives about the city having to put up $$ for the Qwest center.

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:46 pm

Amazingly enough Little Rock, only a few thousand smaller than Omaha/CB was able to implement, support and even expand their streetcar line.

From Little Rock's RiverRail site:

Among the points of interest along the River Rail route are the 18,000-seat Alltel Arena, the 220,00 square-foot Statehouse Convention Center, the River Market, numerous loft apartments, hotels, two city halls, the historic Argenta neighborhood, restaurants, Historic Arkansas Museum, Museum of Discovery, the main branch of the Central Arkansas Library System, two Chambers of Commerce, courthouses, the Robinson Auditorium Concert Hall, Riverfront Amphitheater, dozens of office buildings, fascinating shops and art galleries. The DoubleTree Hotel; the historic Capital Hotel; the Little Rock Peabody Hotel and its "celebrity" ducks; and the Courtyard By Marriott Downtown Hotel are on the route in Little Rock. The Riverfront Wyndham Hotel is only a block away from the streetcar line in North Little Rock.

Ok, let do a little futuristic parallel here..

inevitable future wrote:Among the points of interest along the 10th St. Streetcar line are the 18,000 seat Qwest Center and Convention Center; the 4-Diamond Hilton; Gene Leahy Mall, the historic Old Market district with its vibrant shopping, dining and art galleries; numerous loft apartments and condominiums; Omaha Chamber of Commerce; Marriott, Hilton Garden and Embassy Suites hotels; the Smithsonian affiliate Durham Western Heritage Museum; and Grace University. Within a short walk of the streetcar line you may enjoy the new Omaha Royals Stadium; SloDown; the creative art world of the Hotshops on 13th St.; the world renowned Holland Performing Arts Center; the towering 32-story Wallstreet Omaha condos; Omaha Riverfront and Lewis and Clark Landing; Heartland of America Park.

OmahaRules · Post by **OmahaRules** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:53 pm

While reading the doubting article in the newspaper one of the last comments had to do with running free buses and how that would determine the need for a streetcar line. You have to be kidding me in no way are those two ideas even similar. I will ride mass transit if it is more appealing and frankly a dirty stinky nasty bus doesn't appeal to me. How awesome would it be to park downtown and instead of walking everywhere being able to get on a Streetcar. It would make bar hopping much much easier.

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:56 pm

We should stage a coup and over-throw the World Herald.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:04 pm

WTH? Even if Portland's metro is 2M, does that mean the streetcar serves all 2M? No. The city itself is only over 500,000 and I'm sure it doesn't even serve all of the people in the city. Great points about Little Rock as well.

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:30 pm

I submitted something to the public pulse. I suggest that everyone of you do it as well. It's really easy, just email it here: [email protected]

Here's what I sent:

Recently I have been reading the Online Edition of the World Herald to keep up with all the exciting news about Streetcars in Omaha.

I am an Omahan who currently lives in San Francisco, a city with copious amounts of light rail options. I have noticed a lot of public pulse articles speaking out against the new streetcar system, saying that Omaha can’t support it, and that “Omaha is no Portland” and tripe like that. Those people are plain wrong.

It makes me think back to a few years ago, when people were saying the same things about the just-proposed Qwest Center. They said Omaha couldn’t handle an arena of that magnitude, that “Omaha was no Kansas City” and tripe like that. Look at the Qwest Center now, it’s the number 8 venue in the world, been rated the best arena in the nation and brought millions of dollars in revenue into Omaha.

The people who opposed the Qwest Center were wrong then, and they are wrong now for opposing the new streetcar system.

Streetcar systems spur development the likes of which busses never could. Streetcars have their rails embedded in the street, and because of this, streetcar lines rarely change. That permanence inspires confidence in real estate developers who are willing to pay the higher prices to develop along a street car line because they know that there will be people there.

Omaha is changing. Changing for the better. The Qwest Center, Holland Center and new streetcars are just evidence of that.

Swift · Post by **Swift** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:36 pm

Haha, Julie McCord just called me (less then 5 minutes after I emailed it to her) and said that it was going to be in Friday's Public pulse. She said she "Appreciated this article very much!"

adam186 · Post by **adam186** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:40 pm

Wow, that's great Bob. If they don't put that in the paper, then that will show that they are truly bias and like to take the pesimistic(sp?) approach to all progressive ideas in Omaha. Looking forward to seeing it published.

Minneapolis Boy · Post by **Minneapolis Boy** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:44 pm

Great job, Swift! Those were my thoughts exactly. The people who underestimated Omaha then [regarding the Qwest Center], continue to underestimate Omaha now. I am also one who will not ride a stinky, smelly bus - but would eagerly ride on light-rail/streetcar transportation. Also, buses must stop at stoplight, just like cars. With rail, you briefly stop at stations.

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:47 pm

That's a wonderful letter, thanks for submitting it! I also look forward to any responses that come of it.

ModestMouse · Post by **ModestMouse** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:49 pm

This is the exact type of anti-change that just underlines the fact that a majority of the people in the WH are conservatives who oppose any change in the status quo.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:10 pm

Nice work, Bob and Aaron! That's just what the Pulse needs.

adam186 · Post by **adam186** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:15 pm

Exactly Aaron. Well said and thanks guys for posting your articles. It gives me hope that we are actually doing something to make a difference, even as little as it maybe. If we can change 1 persons opinion about streetcars then job well done.

SaOmaha · Post by **SaOmaha** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:10 pm

I do agree with the view about benefits of streetcar in the editoral Swift, and StreetsOfOmaha sent in today for the Omaha World-Herald Public Pulse.

adam186 · Post by **adam186** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:55 pm

I would even volunteer my time to help build this. I don't need money, I just this thing to get built. Heck, I'll even donate some money.

Harpoon · Post by **Harpoon** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:54 am

Chuck Sigerson needs to put the pencil to the paper and do the math for himself. Let's just say that Omaha only gets a small fraction of the redevelopment that occurred in Portland after they built their streetcar system. I'll say $1 Billion is a pretty nice round number to work with (Portland had what, $2-3 Billion of redevelopment in the first 5 or so years?). The property taxes generated by this new development would pay off the initial investment to build the line in something like 5-6 years.

THIS IS A NO-BRAINER SIGERSON!!! Many people are saying "we can't afford to build it." After looking at these projected numbers I say to myself, how can we afford NOT to build this... it just makes sense. You would have to be a knucklehead not to see that. It works wherever they put them in, this isn't a ground-breaking idea we are just coming up with. They work all over the country and there is not a reason in the world that it wouldn't work here as well. It is a slam dunk.

Anyways, my $0.02.

Harpoon · Post by **Harpoon** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:56 am

Also, this streetcar line could generate something like $20 Million per year in property taxes, EASILY. So maintenance costs shouldn't be that big of an issue to keep it up and running.

adam186 · Post by **adam186** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:05 am

Harpoon wrote:Chuck Sigerson needs to put the pencil to the paper and do the math for himself. Let's just say that Omaha only gets a small fraction of the redevelopment that occurred in Portland after they built their streetcar system. I'll say $1 Billion is a pretty nice round number to work with (Portland had what, $2-3 Billion of redevelopment in the first 5 or so years?). The property taxes generated by this new development would pay off the initial investment to build the line in something like 5-6 years.

THIS IS A NO-BRAINER SIGERSON!!! Many people are saying "we can't afford to build it." After looking at these projected numbers I say to myself, how can we afford NOT to build this... it just makes sense. You would have to be a knucklehead not to see that. It works wherever they put them in, this isn't a ground-breaking idea we are just coming up with. They work all over the country and there is not a reason in the world that it wouldn't work here as well. It is a slam dunk.

Anyways, my $0.02.

What a nice letter to Sigerson. You should send that to him. Seriously.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:49 am

Good stuff guys..I look forward to reading your letters in the Public Pulse..

And if you email Sigerson..The guy will read and respond..At least he used to 3/4 years ago during his first term on the City Council..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

nebrwesleyan · Post by **nebrwesleyan** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:13 pm

Here is my letter as printed in the OWH today...

"Get on board

Regarding the criticisms from some Pulse writers about the proposed north downtown baseball stadium and the streetcar system, since when do we not want to improve our city by pursuing first-class improvements?

The benefits of a streetcar system and new stadium are too numerous to list. Tax money spent on them would be repaid several times over by an increase in tourism dollars.

And why is it that whenever there is a project that would improve our downtown and business centers, it is supported only if private donors take the lead?

Look around, Omaha.

Many major projects, including Qwest Center Omaha and the Holland Performing Arts Center, have been significantly funded by individuals. These donors have supported Omaha more than generously through the years.

When are taxpayers going to step up and pay for improvements that make life better for all Omahans?

Ian Hartfield

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:17 pm

Awesome letter Ian..

Great job!

..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

almighty_tuna · Post by **almighty_tuna** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:39 pm

I'm glad that everyone is voicing their pro-streetcar opinion. However, this isn't just about tourism dollars. Frankly, almost nobody except a very small group of train enthusiasts will come to Omaha specifically because we have a streetcar route. Ma and Pa Texas are not going to say "Omaha has a streetcar, lets go visit and ride it". I don't say it about Portland or Little Rock, they won't say that about us. We are not going to gain all kinds of wild tourism dollars as a direct result of streetcars. What we WILL get is economic development and we'll get it in droves. We'll get businesses who discover that the rail stop 10ft from their front door means that their visibility, property value and economic potential has increased exponentially. Speculative investors see a rail stop with much more permanence than a bus stop and will readily invest more money to improve property along a streetcar line. Why?...because the streetcar will come back. It will come back every 15 min carrying people from a convention, a hotel, people going to a restaurant, going to lunch, going to a Mavs game, connecting universities and their students and providing them a means of transportation. That's what this is all about. Not the tourism dollars, but the massive economic development and transportation benefit which is our return on investing in a streetcar line.

Big E · Post by **Big E** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:02 pm

I'd have to agree on the idea that this won't generate any more tourists. But, I would argue that it might generate more dollars PER tourist, if that makes any sense.

The streetcar also adds a sense of legitimacy to any city as having "arrived", which can help in perception when trying to land conventions/corporate relocations.

-Big E

nebport5 · Post by **nebport5** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:31 pm

I disagree. While I don't think anyone is saying that streetcars will directly translate into tourism dollars, they certainly would make an impact.

What they would do is supplement the tourism we already have. Of course, no one is going to want to come to Omaha to ride a streetcar, but they add another attractive element for visitors to experience along with an ever growing list of entertainent DT. They'd be attractive to visitors the same way horse carriages are in the Old Market.

Still it doesn't have to be one or the other. We can use streetcars for supplementing our own transportation as well as tourism.

Zephyr · Post by **Zephyr** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:56 pm

Right. The streetcar can serve as a tourism multiplier by taking visitors to more destinations around town. Of course that goes for regular commuters, too.

nebrwesleyan · Post by **nebrwesleyan** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:22 pm

What I was getting at is that streetcars would make tourist attractions we already have more visable and accessable and more importantly allow for the inclusion of MORE tourist destinations being developed for the future. You just can't explain that in the small amount of space allowed for the public pulse. You have to simplify things for many Omahans. We all should know that by now. Anyway, I hope people will see my article and if I change only one persons mind, I will still be happy. At the same time I wanted to make sure that our local boosters and donors relaize that they are appreciated very much.

DTO Luv · Post by **DTO Luv** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:57 pm

Put the streetcar all along Farnam Street. I was driving down Farnam from 42nd to DTO the other day, and had a vision of the street being lined with people walking, shopping, and riding the rails. The western and mid sections of the street already have people, but once you get closer to DT you have open spaces that would be perfect for new residential buildings and rail stops.

Post by **Omaha Cowboy** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:43 am

Zephyr wrote:Right. The streetcar can serve as a tourism multiplier by taking visitors to more destinations around town. Of course that goes for regular commuters, too.

Good point!..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

StreetsOfOmaha · Post by **StreetsOfOmaha** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:14 pm

DTO Luv wrote:I was driving down Farnam from 42nd to DTO the other day...

Did you get into an accident? ;) Farnam St. is one way west.