Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[ita]

300 million for 4 miles of sexier? This is the kind of thing that should have been put to a city wide vote. We could do this just as well with an expanded ORBT or regular bases. By using the Orlando system as a model, we could easily cover the route at a vastly lower cost.

Just FYI, if you haven't been keeping track, OMetro developed a master plan of sorts for the next 10 years called MetroNext. In it, they probed for community insight, used ridership and other data like population densities to determine the best use of resources for expansion and improvements. The plan will mostly improve upon existing routes, including stop improvements and frequencies. West Omaha will get an extension of the Dodge Express to 204th and a possible new route on Fort from 156th-ish to Westroads. A frequent Airport route is also part of the plan. BRT is contemplated for 24th and 72nd, but at this point they are being studied. Based on the initial projects to be completed by 2030, OMetro sees an annual increase in operating budget of $20 million ($32M to $52M) by 2030. I am not sure that includes BRT on 24th and 72nd. If OMetro implemented every project that was identified during the planning process, including microtransit zones, beltline routes, ORBT on Fort Crook and Broadway, and service out to like Gretna and Valley, the annual operating budget would have to be increased to $100 million. Any annual increases means increased and broadened tax levy. I believe next year OMetro as a regional transit authority board already agreed to increase the tax levy. I am glad that is out of voter's hands.

There is also a whole portion about low density parts of the city and how OMetro can serve them. I haven't reviewed it comprehensively, but it surmises that microtransit may be the best fit to serve those parts of the community.

https://www.ometro.com/wp-content/uploa ... ssment.pdf

[TitosBuritoBarn]

300 million for 4 miles of sexier? This is the kind of thing that should have been put to a city wide vote. We could do this just as well with an expanded ORBT or regular bases. By using the Orlando system as a model, we could easily cover the route at a vastly lower cost.

I mentioned two other things that complement the sexiness of a streetcar. Capacity and permanency all work together to create ridership desirability and efficiency, it's not just the sexiness. That snowballs into development that requires less parking, which saves money and space, and in turn encourages expansion of the transit system which continues the cycle. So the money spent on more robust transit is offset by gains in the city's efficiency and sense of place, not just in transportation but in economic development and quality of life.

Also as I mentioned, the Orlando system is just a regular bus line where the buses have a trolley look instead of a typical transit bus look. This is what is in place already where the streetcar would go, sans the boxy-ness of the buses, and they are not doing the job necessary to accommodate desired growth and change.

And speaking of Orlando, I'll reiterate a point I made elsewhere on this thread. At the Magic Kingdom, there is a bus that will take you from the Ticket and Transportation Center to the main gate of the park. It goes between the two with regular frequency and does not have any stops along the way. But do people ride it? Not really, no. Part of the Disney experience is taking the monorail or the ferry, even if you've been there a bajillion times. You take the bus as a last resort when you just don't want to wait. So it's not just about having a system in place and half-assing its desirability, it's about making it an experience. And that leads to the benefits I mentioned earlier.

[Athomsfere]

And speaking of Orlando

And someone please mention how utterly miserable Orlando is. As much as a city like Omaha might love their tourism numbers, the city itself is a wasteland of wasted potential. A 23 minute drive to where everyone goes, or a 2 hour transit ride!!!

A city that poorly planned is not something I want us to emulate.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

And speaking of Orlando

And someone please mention how utterly miserable Orlando is. As much as a city like Omaha might love their tourism numbers, the city itself is a wasteland of wasted potential. A 23 minute drive to where everyone goes, or a 2 hour transit ride!!!

A city that poorly planned is not something I want us to emulate.

I will say in Orlando's defense, most of I-Drive and the touristy southwest region of the Orlando metro area isn't even in Orlando proper, so the City of Orlando doesn't have too much say in the planning there. If you're familiar with where Universal Studios is, that is the southwestern-most boundary. Gift shop/tourist trap heck is in unincorporated Orange County.

On a recent Orlando trip I went and explored downtown Orlando and was quite surprised. It's pretty walkable and relatively active with a mix of corporate high rises, condos, parks, and entertainment. There's a fair amount of biking infrastructure and even a significant free-fare BRT with dedicated lanes and a commuter rail system, SunRail, that goes to Kissimmee. Downtown is completely devoid of tourists and feels like a completely different place than what you find around the theme parks.

[S.O.Boy]

https://www.ketv.com/article/mayor-stot ... ar/9251392

What changed?

[Louie]

https://www.ketv.com/article/mayor-stot ... ar/9251392

What changed?

n 2017, she needed the majority to be behind the project before she'd be behind it. Now she doesn't as she isn't up for reelection, not that I blame her in this particular instance.

[bricknose]

My only experience with streetcars was riding one in Kansas City. While Omaha doesn’t have quite the equivalent of the fantastic foodie heaven that is the River Market, nor the mid-rise urban paradise of the Power and Light District, I’m hoping that we may grow to have something similar with the streetcar’s presence encouraging investment.

I basically never drive downtown. If I can help it, I’ll take the ORBT or the 15 bus there and back. But until I arrive downtown, there’s not much to experience. Harney is pretty sparse in the Midtown area with small residential buildings along the way, and Farnam is a wasteland east of 30th. There is definitely room for improvement before Farnam and Harney are dense, bustling urban corridors, but I’m rooting for it to happen.

[Stargazer]

My only experience with streetcars was riding one in Kansas City...

Psst. It's not really about transit. Chances are many of those amenities you're seeing along KC's line came WITH or on the heels of the streetcar line.

https://nextcity.org/urbanist-news/kc-s ... in-purpose

[buildomaha]

My only experience with streetcars was riding one in Kansas City...

Psst. It's not really about transit. Chances are many of those amenities you're seeing along KC's line came WITH or on the heels of the streetcar line.

https://nextcity.org/urbanist-news/kc-s ... in-purpose

It appears the link is broken:(

[bricknose]

My only experience with streetcars was riding one in Kansas City...

Psst. It's not really about transit. Chances are many of those amenities you're seeing along KC's line came WITH or on the heels of the streetcar line.

https://nextcity.org/urbanist-news/kc-s ... in-purpose

It appears the link is broken:(

It was probably this: https://nextcity.org/urbanist-news/kc-s ... in-purpose

[Athomsfere]

My only experience with streetcars was riding one in Kansas City...

Psst. It's not really about transit. Chances are many of those amenities you're seeing along KC's line came WITH or on the heels of the streetcar line.

I don't see how that isn't about transit. Good transit is about getting people to places. That fact that we as a city / country have so much pent up demand for even bad transit that this spurs ludicrous investment overnight should be a sign to build far, far more.

[TransitOriented]

My only experience with streetcars was riding one in Kansas City...

Psst. It's not really about transit. Chances are many of those amenities you're seeing along KC's line came WITH or on the heels of the streetcar line.

I don't see how that isn't about transit. Good transit is about getting people to places. That fact that we as a city / country have so much pent up demand for even bad transit that this spurs ludicrous investment overnight should be a sign to build far, far more.

We're just "throwing" in a "cheap" streetcar. Building far, far more costs far, far more, so the ROI isn't as high as something this cheap and easy.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

My only experience with streetcars was riding one in Kansas City...

Psst. It's not really about transit. Chances are many of those amenities you're seeing along KC's line came WITH or on the heels of the streetcar line.

I don't see how that isn't about transit. Good transit is about getting people to places. That fact that we as a city / country have so much pent up demand for even bad transit that this spurs ludicrous investment overnight should be a sign to build far, far more.

It's about both, or at least it can be. The Portland Streetcar, which is often regarded as the gold standard for streetcars in North America, also began as an economic development tool with transit being secondary. Now the roles have reversed as the development product has matured and the system expanded to be more comprehensive.

[Athomsfere]

I don't see how that isn't about transit. Good transit is about getting people to places. That fact that we as a city / country have so much pent up demand for even bad transit that this spurs ludicrous investment overnight should be a sign to build far, far more.

It's about both, or at least it can be. The Portland Streetcar, which is often regarded as the gold standard for streetcars in North America, also began as an economic development tool with transit being secondary. Now the roles have reversed as the development product has matured and the system expanded to be more comprehensive.

That's kind of my point. We really, really need transit to not suck. Most people, just don't get that.

Sure, we might see the developers help push it through the dense heads of the average American, but that doesn't mean it's not the start of decent transit.

It's like getting a Lego kit, and holding up a block and stating "this is nothing more than a plastic brick".

[TitosBuritoBarn]

That's kind of my point. We really, really need transit to not suck. Most people, just don't get that.

Sure, we might see the developers help push it through the dense heads of the average American, but that doesn't mean it's not the start of decent transit.

It's like getting a Lego kit, and holding up a block and stating "this is nothing more than a plastic brick".

My job would be a lot easier if I could figure out how to get the needs and benefits of multimodal transportation systems through to people in a lot of places. What's odd to me is that Americans will pay huge sums of money to go and experience the thrill of interesting transit systems at Disney World (Monorails! People movers! Ferries! Street cars! Gondolas!) and then vote against them when they get home. When I was in the Chicago area there was a lady in our suburban office who was a huge Disney fan and would often tell me that it would be so awesome if they would build a monorail system in and that she would ride it to work if they did. My response was always that she's in luck because there is a system already in place in Chicago that ferries people around a "highway in the sky" and has two rails instead of just one. They call it the 'L' train.

[skinzfan23]

My response was always that she's in luck because there is a system already in place in Chicago that ferries people around a "highway in the sky" and has two rails instead of just one. They call it the 'L' train.

That is funny.

Kind of different but on the same point, I hear people say all the time that there is nothing to do where I live in Bellevue. There are proposals to build an indoor waterpark (not sure if it will happen) but those same people are already complaining about the traffic from the proposed waterpark that isn't even built and saying that they don't want all the extra people coming to Bellevue. The way people's minds work is amazing.

[Athomsfere]

That's kind of my point. We really, really need transit to not suck. Most people, just don't get that.

Sure, we might see the developers help push it through the dense heads of the average American, but that doesn't mean it's not the start of decent transit.

It's like getting a Lego kit, and holding up a block and stating "this is nothing more than a plastic brick".

My job would be a lot easier if I could figure out how to get the needs and benefits of multimodal transportation systems through to people in a lot of places. What's odd to me is that Americans will pay huge sums of money to go and experience the thrill of interesting transit systems at Disney World (Monorails! People movers! Ferries! Street cars! Gondolas!) and then vote against them when they get home. When I was in the Chicago area there was a lady in our suburban office who was a huge Disney fan and would often tell me that it would be so awesome if they would build a monorail system in and that she would ride it to work if they did. My response was always that she's in luck because there is a system already in place in Chicago that ferries people around a "highway in the sky" and has two rails instead of just one. They call it the 'L' train.

I like to think I'm doing my part to convince people of those benefits.

For me, having grown up and lived around Texas and the midwest, I had a lot of misconceptions.

Austin was an easy city to get around, but it was the size of Omaha now more or less. San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston were terrible.

Moving around the midwest, something was always "wrong" but I couldn't figure it out. Chicago was always amazing. Then visited LA for the first time and I knew what the worst type of city was. But, having the typical American mindset I misplaced where those planning mistakes were placed. "Man, if only these highways to get everywhere were a little wider"...

Go international and it all clicked. Cities smaller than ours with great transit mixed with good bike usage. The simple joy of ridding a bike to the train station. Or getting off the train at night, and walking past your local grocery store for a light dinner and beer for the walk to my apartment. The magic of not needing to drive across town for a restaurant.

And finally, man commuting. I would gladly take a 30 - 50 minute train ride every day over 15 - 20 minutes in even Omaha's traffic. And I can only imagine driving an hour+ in LA's.

[Big E]

US Cities Are Falling Out of Love With the Parking Lot

California and many local governments are scrapping requirements that once made cars the center of the urban landscape.

https://www.wired.com/story/us-cities-a ... rking-lot/

Starting in January, though, California will become the first US state to enact a ban on parking minimums, halting their use in areas with public transport in a move that Governor Gavin Newsom called a “win-win” for reducing planet-heating emissions from cars, as well as helping alleviate the lack of affordable housing in a state that has lagged in building new dwellings.

Honestly just posting this here to watch idiots freak out.

[Athomsfere]

US Cities Are Falling Out of Love With the Parking Lot

California and many local governments are scrapping requirements that once made cars the center of the urban landscape.

https://www.wired.com/story/us-cities-a ... rking-lot/

Starting in January, though, California will become the first US state to enact a ban on parking minimums, halting their use in areas with public transport in a move that Governor Gavin Newsom called a “win-win” for reducing planet-heating emissions from cars, as well as helping alleviate the lack of affordable housing in a state that has lagged in building new dwellings.

Honestly just posting this here to watch idiots freak out.

I love it. Omaha might do something similar in 90 years. Hope I live to see it.

[daveoma]

It seems like a decent idea in urban areas with adequate public transportation. It makes me wonder if there are any neighborhoods in Omaha that could benefit from a new parking ban.

[Athomsfere]

It seems like a decent idea in urban areas with adequate public transportation. It makes me wonder if there are any neighborhoods in Omaha that could benefit from a new parking ban.

An actual ban? Or just banning parking minimums?

If an actual ban, I don't know that could ever work anywhere. You'd always need parking for people who drove in for a hotel...

A ban on minimums. I'd say that would work anywhere, right now. But especially easy East of Saddlecreek.

[Brad]

Omaha has the TOD zoning for areas near the Orbit or Streetcar lines. It cuts the minimum parking in half.

[bricknose]

Realistically speaking, what hurdles still stand in the way of the streetcar? Will the voices of Buffett and those who agree with him likely manage to undo the plans, or much like the demolition of the library, are the mayor’s plans and their tight tie to the big-dollar Mutual tower project unlikely to allow vocal dissent to cancel the project?

[Linkin5]

From everything I’ve read/heard there is no chance at this being cancelled.

[Garrett]

A separate and hypothetical thought, but if CB does indeed end up getting a streetcar line, I'll be interested to see if development interest picks up there. Could be an interesting case study as the Nebraska side of the metro has historically seen most of the growth.

[ita]

Here's the agenda for this month's meeting, 1/23.

https://www.cityofomaha.org/images/omah ... evised.pdf

Items on the table include approval of an MOU to be entered into with Portland Streetcar, Inc. for joint vehicle procurement. they are also discussing possible off wire along the route. There is a summary and map of the possible lengths of off wire rail at the end. Here is the map:



If you read the minutes from the December meeting, there are some discussions about future extensions, increasing the streetcar vehicle count, and working with Council Bluffs. No details, just mentions.

[Louie]

That's interesting and smart. Wonder if they get better pricing by buying more cars for 2 cities.

[ita]

That's interesting and smart. Wonder if they get better pricing by buying more cars for 2 cities.

Jay Noodle asked a similar question in the December Meeting:

Jay Noddle mentioned that there is an ongoing conversation with UNMC regarding how they would like the streetcar to interact with their campus. A question was also raised about how easy or difficult it would be to add to the vehicle order of more vehicles need to be added. In addition, the question was raised if more vehicles are ordered, will the price per vehicle go down?

I think part of it is that Portland and Omaha, together will have more bargaining power because of the size of the total order. According to the minutes, there are 5-8 companies showing interest in bidding for the potential joint contract. Portland and Omaha should be able to get an ideal deal for both cities. I think it helps Omaha as well since this isn't Portland's first rodeo.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

That's interesting and smart. Wonder if they get better pricing by buying more cars for 2 cities.

Jay Noodle asked a similar question in the December Meeting:

Jay Noddle mentioned that there is an ongoing conversation with UNMC regarding how they would like the streetcar to interact with their campus. A question was also raised about how easy or difficult it would be to add to the vehicle order of more vehicles need to be added. In addition, the question was raised if more vehicles are ordered, will the price per vehicle go down?

I think part of it is that Portland and Omaha, together will have more bargaining power because of the size of the total order. According to the minutes, there are 5-8 companies showing interest in bidding for the potential joint contract. Portland and Omaha should be able to get an ideal deal for both cities. I think it helps Omaha as well since this isn't Portland's first rodeo.

Yep, that's usually how it works. Cities will often go in together on such collective bargaining because the bigger the contract the more attractive it is and the more competitive bidders will be on it.

Also cool that we would likely have the same model of streetcar as Portland.

[Athomsfere]

That's interesting and smart. Wonder if they get better pricing by buying more cars for 2 cities.

Jay Noodle asked a similar question in the December Meeting:

Jay Noddle mentioned that there is an ongoing conversation with UNMC regarding how they would like the streetcar to interact with their campus. A question was also raised about how easy or difficult it would be to add to the vehicle order of more vehicles need to be added. In addition, the question was raised if more vehicles are ordered, will the price per vehicle go down?

I think part of it is that Portland and Omaha, together will have more bargaining power because of the size of the total order. According to the minutes, there are 5-8 companies showing interest in bidding for the potential joint contract. Portland and Omaha should be able to get an ideal deal for both cities. I think it helps Omaha as well since this isn't Portland's first rodeo.

Yep, that's usually how it works. Cities will often go in together on such collective bargaining because the bigger the contract the more attractive it is and the more competitive bidders will be on it.

Also cool that we would likely have the same model of streetcar as Portland.

Portland currently has what, 2 different models of rolling stock for their streetcar system?

Also, off wire... Does this require batteries then?

[ita]

That's interesting and smart. Wonder if they get better pricing by buying more cars for 2 cities.

Jay Noodle asked a similar question in the December Meeting:

Jay Noddle mentioned that there is an ongoing conversation with UNMC regarding how they would like the streetcar to interact with their campus. A question was also raised about how easy or difficult it would be to add to the vehicle order of more vehicles need to be added. In addition, the question was raised if more vehicles are ordered, will the price per vehicle go down?

I think part of it is that Portland and Omaha, together will have more bargaining power because of the size of the total order. According to the minutes, there are 5-8 companies showing interest in bidding for the potential joint contract. Portland and Omaha should be able to get an ideal deal for both cities. I think it helps Omaha as well since this isn't Portland's first rodeo.

Yep, that's usually how it works. Cities will often go in together on such collective bargaining because the bigger the contract the more attractive it is and the more competitive bidders will be on it.

Also cool that we would likely have the same model of streetcar as Portland.

Portland currently has what, 2 different models of rolling stock for their streetcar system?

Also, off wire... Does this require batteries then?

Yes, batteries included. There is an executive summary in the agenda. Basically no cost savings, but could reduce conflicts with utilities, ADA/sidewalk clearances, and stray current mitigation.

[S.O.Boy]

Hopefully 1 of the parking lots at MoO can become the place for a carbarn. They will need 1 of those.

[Athomsfere]

Hopefully 1 of the parking lots at MoO can become the place for a carbarn. They will need 1 of those.

I can't remember, but I thought they were looking at lots at one of the terminus points.

[Brad]

Hopefully 1 of the parking lots at MoO can become the place for a carbarn. They will need 1 of those.

I can't remember, but I thought they were looking at lots at one of the terminus points.

I thought the car barn was behind the arena where that loop is?

[ita]

Hopefully 1 of the parking lots at MoO can become the place for a carbarn. They will need 1 of those.

I can't remember, but I thought they were looking at lots at one of the terminus points.

I thought the car barn was behind the arena where that loop is?

Yes, currently eyed for 8th and Capitol on MECA controlled property.

[Athomsfere]

Hopefully 1 of the parking lots at MoO can become the place for a carbarn. They will need 1 of those.

I can't remember, but I thought they were looking at lots at one of the terminus points.

I thought the car barn was behind the arena where that loop is?

Yes, currently eyed for 8th and Capitol on MECA controlled property.

OK, thats sort of what I was thinking. In my head it was on the North Downtown terminus area.

I also think the guy from Portland has said it's not settled though and they have some other sites in mind. Unless I'm way out of date on that.

[ita]

Hopefully 1 of the parking lots at MoO can become the place for a carbarn. They will need 1 of those.

I can't remember, but I thought they were looking at lots at one of the terminus points.

I thought the car barn was behind the arena where that loop is?

Yes, currently eyed for 8th and Capitol on MECA controlled property.

OK, thats sort of what I was thinking. In my head it was on the North Downtown terminus area.

I also think the guy from Portland has said it's not settled though and they have some other sites in mind. Unless I'm way out of date on that.

I think it's been identified as the priority location for the maintenance facility, but it can change when the final design is completed by HDR.

[Athomsfere]

I think it's been identified as the priority location for the maintenance facility, but it can change when the final design is completed by HDR.

Great.

Now we just need that to get done, and the line to get built! This is 100% my favorite project in Omaha right now. Probably the least sexy project imaginable once built. But oh so good.

[ita]

I think it's been identified as the priority location for the maintenance facility, but it can change when the final design is completed by HDR.

Great.

Now we just need that to get done, and the line to get built! This is 100% my favorite project in Omaha right now. Probably the least sexy project imaginable once built. But oh so good.

Yup, agreed. And it's nice, we're just moving right along.

Hopefully, there won't be delays in procuring the streetcars. According to the agenda, it currently can take 2.5 to 3 years for delivery of the streetcar vehicles, so they are trying to order those as soon as possible.

[Athomsfere]

I think it's been identified as the priority location for the maintenance facility, but it can change when the final design is completed by HDR.

Great.

Now we just need that to get done, and the line to get built! This is 100% my favorite project in Omaha right now. Probably the least sexy project imaginable once built. But oh so good.

Yup, agreed. And it's nice, we're just moving right along.

Hopefully, there won't be delays in procuring the streetcars. According to the agenda, it currently can take 2.5 to 3 years for delivery of the streetcar vehicles, so they are trying to order those as soon as possible.

Do we know what stock is being considered?