Urban Grocery Store

[nebport5]

A grocery store is not going to build downtown if the restrictions are to include all of the following:

- HAVE to have a better selection than Cubby’s
- HAVE to be reasonably priced
- HAVE to be focused on people just walking/biking/mass transit

You’re going to be waiting decades more if you’re placing all these demands on the business, whose ONLY concern is to be profitable, not to be part of a mass transit social construct.

It’s not about changing peoples minds eventually - it’s about what a business is willing to risk to ensure they are profitable

All realistic points except it wouldn't take much to have a better selection than Cubby's. In fact, I would think there would be a competitive edge in carrying products that are more dialed in to the demographics than a gas station plus selection. That isn't to say it would have to be a niche offering. A potential grocer could have most items Cubby's carries as well as what forces a downtown resident to get in their car to find.

[Dusty]

Stipulations of course. No surface lots, and no minimums. If Hy-Vee thinks they can get away with 1/4 of the TOD recommendations, let them.

Who knows, in 10 years we might have the sort of transit where eventually the only garage at the civic site would be this one. And that's OK IMO because you might have someone driving through and grabbing an AirBnB in midtown and sees this store right on route.

I couldn't agree more. Of course location and size of store could change a lot of the variables. But if Civic site is the plan, then offer no parking minimums, open access to hourly parking for current garages (17th & Chicago and 19th & Capital). Hang that as a bonus to build a store similar to downtown Des Moines.

This has been a fun discussion. Loving all the different perspectives and input!

[almighty_tuna]

FWIW, White Lotus is promoting that KETV story on their LinkedIn page. Could be a hint, could be nothing at all.

[NEDodger]

FWIW, White Lotus is promoting that KETV story on their LinkedIn page. Could be a hint, could be nothing at all.

That is interesting. May be trying to market the development to a grocery chain as an untapped market? Doesn’t hurt to advertise the situation.

[NeGoofyfoot]

Stipulations of course. No surface lots, and no minimums. If Hy-Vee thinks they can get away with 1/4 of the TOD recommendations, let them.

Who knows, in 10 years we might have the sort of transit where eventually the only garage at the civic site would be this one. And that's OK IMO because you might have someone driving through and grabbing an AirBnB in midtown and sees this store right on route.

I couldn't agree more. Of course location and size of store could change a lot of the variables. But if Civic site is the plan, then offer no parking minimums, open access to hourly parking for current garages (17th & Chicago and 19th & Capital). Hang that as a bonus to build a store similar to downtown Des Moines.

This has been a fun discussion. Loving all the different perspectives and input!

As daily user of the parking garage attached to Consentinos in KC. Validation is a huge part of making that garage work for quick daily users. The "free" parking is available based on the tenant and a predetermined length of time and based on where you ticket is validated. If you go to the Gym your validation from the gym gets you 3 hrs free if you're shopping at Consentinos I their validation is valid for less (maybe 30 minutes). Anything over that time limit or a validation from another tenant not attached to that garage is paid based on the posted rates. Not sure if that "free" parking is paid for by the Tenant or subsidized by the city. Just some food for thought.

[ita]

Stipulations of course. No surface lots, and no minimums. If Hy-Vee thinks they can get away with 1/4 of the TOD recommendations, let them.

Who knows, in 10 years we might have the sort of transit where eventually the only garage at the civic site would be this one. And that's OK IMO because you might have someone driving through and grabbing an AirBnB in midtown and sees this store right on route.

I couldn't agree more. Of course location and size of store could change a lot of the variables. But if Civic site is the plan, then offer no parking minimums, open access to hourly parking for current garages (17th & Chicago and 19th & Capital). Hang that as a bonus to build a store similar to downtown Des Moines.

This has been a fun discussion. Loving all the different perspectives and input!

As daily user of the parking garage attached to Consentinos in KC. Validation is a huge part of making that garage work for quick daily users. The "free" parking is available based on the tenant and a predetermined length of time and based on where you ticket is validated. If you go to the Gym your validation from the gym gets you 3 hrs free if you're shopping at Consentinos I their validation is valid for less (maybe 30 minutes). Anything over that time limit or a validation from another tenant not attached to that garage is paid based on the posted rates. Not sure if that "free" parking is paid for by the Tenant or subsidized by the city. Just some food for thought.

There is a similar setup at Midtown Crossing. I am not sure if all businesses validate, but I've had some validate parking.

[jomaha9]

I have been following this thread and I actually think the Civic site is the best location downtown for an urban grocery store. I know many people on the forum do not like the idea of having parking, but this site would serve many of the existing residential units downtown along with the daytime workforce in the area, students at Central and Creighton, and potential new development at the Civic and the UP site.

Another consideration not mentioned is that large grocery stores receive truckloads of products daily. With I-480 and Dodge street nearby, this location is likely the most logistically efficient site to support inbound product, customers with cars, and pedestrians. Having a larger grocery store in the Old Market or Capital District would add to the congestion on smaller streets and diminish the pedestrian experience.

[Athomsfere]

Stipulations of course. No surface lots, and no minimums. If Hy-Vee thinks they can get away with 1/4 of the TOD recommendations, let them.

Who knows, in 10 years we might have the sort of transit where eventually the only garage at the civic site would be this one. And that's OK IMO because you might have someone driving through and grabbing an AirBnB in midtown and sees this store right on route.

I couldn't agree more. Of course location and size of store could change a lot of the variables. But if Civic site is the plan, then offer no parking minimums, open access to hourly parking for current garages (17th & Chicago and 19th & Capital). Hang that as a bonus to build a store similar to downtown Des Moines.

This has been a fun discussion. Loving all the different perspectives and input!

As daily user of the parking garage attached to Consentinos in KC. Validation is a huge part of making that garage work for quick daily users. The "free" parking is available based on the tenant and a predetermined length of time and based on where you ticket is validated. If you go to the Gym your validation from the gym gets you 3 hrs free if you're shopping at Consentinos I their validation is valid for less (maybe 30 minutes). Anything over that time limit or a validation from another tenant not attached to that garage is paid based on the posted rates. Not sure if that "free" parking is paid for by the Tenant or subsidized by the city. Just some food for thought.

There is a similar setup at Midtown Crossing. I am not sure if all businesses validate, but I've had some validate parking.

They pretty much all do. 3 hours blanket validation.

I'll admit, I've probably abused it a little too. Go for a walk, or a short event. Swing through Wohlner's on the way out to grab one or two things and validate parking

[ita]

Listening to Grow Omaha's most recent show, a call in one, there was a caller claiming that Kroger real estate team recently visited Omaha looking for possible new locations. The caller, I think, claimed they were even considering a downtown location. Right before the pandemic, Kroger opened two urban grocery stores, one in Phoenix at Block 23 and one in Cincinnati, the location of its HQ. Anyway, it was an interesting conversation and rumor.

[Athomsfere]

Listening to Grow Omaha's most recent show, a call in one, there was a caller claiming that Kroger real estate team recently visited Omaha looking for possible new locations. The caller, I think, claimed they were even considering a downtown location. Right before the pandemic, Kroger opened two urban grocery stores, one in Phoenix at Block 23 and one in Cincinnati, the location of its HQ. Anyway, it was an interesting conversation and rumor.

From memory (listened to it a few days ago) it was the CEO and handful of other high level executives had been to Omaha something like 16 times over the last year. And we're "shopping locations" as a fact. And mentioned that Berkshire owns 10% of Kroger.

The caller was asking if they knew anything that suggested it would be downtown.

The hosts (and Brad) then went on an excursion about how there hadn't been any new kroger stores built in the metro in a long time, and Hy-Vee has taken over.

My suspicion would be that even if part of it is a downtown location (Civic), there is something bigger happening. Maybe a "super Baker's"? Maybe multiple new stores to compete with Hy-Vee? Something with Kroger Restaurant Supply, seeing how strong the food scene is in Omaha?

I mean, to send the CEO that many times feels like something bigger than one new store to me. And I doubt we could get anything super crazy like a headquarters move from Cincinnati lol

[Brad]

The hosts (and Brad) then went on an excursion about how there hadn't been any new kroger stores built in the metro in a long time, and Hy-Vee has taken over.

I don't believe Kroger has ever built a new store in Omaha. Pepperwood and Lakeside were both open before Kroger purchased Fleming (Parent company to Bakers) in 2001.

[Dusty]

If Kroger is seriously scouting the area, I bet it's for their home delivery service. They have been aggressively pushing this. I'm starting to see the delivery trucks down here in Florida right now. So I doubt it's walk in grocery stores. They open a cold storage warehouse for food distribution. Warehouse to your door.

[Athomsfere]

If Kroger is seriously scouting the area, I bet it's for their home delivery service. They have been aggressively pushing this. I'm starting to see the delivery trucks down here in Florida right now. So I doubt it's walk in grocery stores. They open a cold storage warehouse for food distribution. Warehouse to your door.

I'd say that and / or the restaurant supply would make sense.

Although, a new store or two would also make a ton of sense to me. The Saddle Creek location comes to mind. That location is likely underperforming for the value of the land and the density that is there, or coming.

But more on topic:
Kroger has a newer urban store in it's hometown:
https://chainstoreage.com/store-spaces/ ... rmat-store

[Louie]

If Kroger is seriously scouting the area, I bet it's for their home delivery service. They have been aggressively pushing this. I'm starting to see the delivery trucks down here in Florida right now. So I doubt it's walk in grocery stores. They open a cold storage warehouse for food distribution. Warehouse to your door.

I'd say that and / or the restaurant supply would make sense.

Although, a new store or two would also make a ton of sense to me. The Saddle Creek location comes to mind. That location is likely underperforming for the value of the land and the density that is there, or coming.

But more on topic:
Kroger has a newer urban store in it's hometown:
https://chainstoreage.com/store-spaces/ ... rmat-store

Underperforming? When I was in the industry it was always leading in sales compared to the other Baker's locations.

[Athomsfere]

If Kroger is seriously scouting the area, I bet it's for their home delivery service. They have been aggressively pushing this. I'm starting to see the delivery trucks down here in Florida right now. So I doubt it's walk in grocery stores. They open a cold storage warehouse for food distribution. Warehouse to your door.

I'd say that and / or the restaurant supply would make sense.

Although, a new store or two would also make a ton of sense to me. The Saddle Creek location comes to mind. That location is likely underperforming for the value of the land and the density that is there, or coming.

But more on topic:
Kroger has a newer urban store in it's hometown:
https://chainstoreage.com/store-spaces/ ... rmat-store

Underperforming? When I was in the industry it was always leading in sales compared to the other Baker's locations.

Good to know.

I'm not in the industry, at all. That location has always been busy, but it also feels like a ton of money is being left on the table at that location. Abysmal seafood selection, sad meat counter, and very few spirits / beer compared to something like the Cass Hy-Vee.

I always assumed it was an unloved store and so never saw updates to try and capture more dollars.

[OmahaRedWing]

I shop periodically at the Baker's on Saddle Creek. To me it's far and away the busiest Baker's in the Metro. I can't remember going in there recently and it not being busy.

I know land values are going up there, but so is the density. I would think it's only going to get busier going forward.

[Louie]

If Kroger is seriously scouting the area, I bet it's for their home delivery service. They have been aggressively pushing this. I'm starting to see the delivery trucks down here in Florida right now. So I doubt it's walk in grocery stores. They open a cold storage warehouse for food distribution. Warehouse to your door.

I'd say that and / or the restaurant supply would make sense.

Although, a new store or two would also make a ton of sense to me. The Saddle Creek location comes to mind. That location is likely underperforming for the value of the land and the density that is there, or coming.

But more on topic:
Kroger has a newer urban store in it's hometown:
https://chainstoreage.com/store-spaces/ ... rmat-store

Underperforming? When I was in the industry it was always leading in sales compared to the other Baker's locations.

Good to know.

I'm not in the industry, at all. That location has always been busy, but it also feels like a ton of money is being left on the table at that location. Abysmal seafood selection, sad meat counter, and very few spirits / beer compared to something like the Cass Hy-Vee.

I always assumed it was an unloved store and so never saw updates to try and capture more dollars.

It's location was definitely a boost for it. Lots of downtown residents do their regular shopping here as well as people all the way to Aksarben. But I think the insane traffic it gets makes it look a little worse for the wear, too, ha.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I shop periodically at the Baker's on Saddle Creek. To me it's far and away the busiest Baker's in the Metro. I can't remember going in there recently and it not being busy.

I know land values are going up there, but so is the density. I would think it's only going to get busier going forward.

When I lived in that area years ago in the 1990’s that Saddle Creek Baker’s store was always busy. It was my go to, When Albertsons opened a new store on Saddle Creek around 1991, I’d rotate between the 2…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Athomsfere]

It's location was definitely a boost for it. Lots of downtown residents do their regular shopping here as well as people all the way to Aksarben. But I think the insane traffic it gets makes it look a little worse for the wear, too, ha.

Yeah, it's always been my backup and 3rd choice. Living in Dundee now. Super short trips, I'll go to Wohlner's. If I need more stuff, I'll go to Cass and the asian market. If I don't need much, but more than Wohlner's has, I'll go to that Baker's.

[Dusty]

We are very spoiled in Omaha to have so many different grocery chains. Here in Florida where I'm at, it's like 90% Publix. The other options are the small grocery section at Target/Walmart. If you are lucky, you can find an Aldi or Winn-Dixie. You could probably say the same for Texas where HEB dominates the whole market.

As for an urban store, I think we could support a second Trader Joes location. I would love Sprouts Farmers Market brought to Omaha. They remind me a lot of the size and vibe as Fresh Thyme was.

[Omaha Cowboy]

We are very spoiled in Omaha to have so many different grocery chains.
As for an urban store, I think we could support a second Trader Joes location. I would love Sprouts Farmers Market brought to Omaha. They remind me a lot of the size and vibe as Fresh Thyme was.

I’ve kind of wished Albertsons wouldn’t have pulled out of the Omaha Market back in 2004. It was always in my grocery store rotation. I liked rotating between Baker’s, HyVee and Albertsons..

In any case, I completely agree that Omaha could support a 2nd Trader Joe’s..and one in the downtown core would get a nice “get”. I still hold out hope for an urban concept Whole Foods downtown..but Trader Joe’s would be a nice option as well…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[nebport5]

We are very spoiled in Omaha to have so many different grocery chains.
As for an urban store, I think we could support a second Trader Joes location. I would love Sprouts Farmers Market brought to Omaha. They remind me a lot of the size and vibe as Fresh Thyme was.

I’ve kind of wished Albertsons wouldn’t have pulled out of the Omaha Market back in 2004. It was always in my grocery store rotation. I liked rotating between Baker’s, HyVee and Albertsons..

In any case, I completely agree that Omaha could support a 2nd Trader Joe’s..and one in the downtown core would get a nice “get”. I still hold out hope for an urban concept Whole Foods downtown..but Trader Joe’s would be a nice option as well…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

Albertson's, really? They would have largely the same thing as Hy-Vee & Baker's yet were dramatically more expensive.

[Omaha Cowboy]

We are very spoiled in Omaha to have so many different grocery chains.
As for an urban store, I think we could support a second Trader Joes location. I would love Sprouts Farmers Market brought to Omaha. They remind me a lot of the size and vibe as Fresh Thyme was.

I’ve kind of wished Albertsons wouldn’t have pulled out of the Omaha Market back in 2004. It was always in my grocery store rotation. I liked rotating between Baker’s, HyVee and Albertsons..

In any case, I completely agree that Omaha could support a 2nd Trader Joe’s..and one in the downtown core would get a nice “get”. I still hold out hope for an urban concept Whole Foods downtown..but Trader Joe’s would be a nice option as well…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

Albertson's, really? They would have largely the same thing as Hy-Vee & Baker's yet were dramatically more expensive.

I found the pricing to be pretty similar between the 3. I never saw Albertsons as being more expensive between this trio. If anything, it was HyVee that was usually the pricier of the bunch (and still is)..

In any case, I liked the added variety of grocers. There were items I was always able to buy at Albertsons that I couldn’t readily find at HyVee or Baker’s..and vise-versa between the three stores. It was a nice balance, and all 3 were basically same level of grocery store chain when to came to product and pricing.. It was just nice to have that 3rd chain for (again) variety sake…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[nebport5]

We are very spoiled in Omaha to have so many different grocery chains.
As for an urban store, I think we could support a second Trader Joes location. I would love Sprouts Farmers Market brought to Omaha. They remind me a lot of the size and vibe as Fresh Thyme was.

I’ve kind of wished Albertsons wouldn’t have pulled out of the Omaha Market back in 2004. It was always in my grocery store rotation. I liked rotating between Baker’s, HyVee and Albertsons..

In any case, I completely agree that Omaha could support a 2nd Trader Joe’s..and one in the downtown core would get a nice “get”. I still hold out hope for an urban concept Whole Foods downtown..but Trader Joe’s would be a nice option as well…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

Albertson's, really? They would have largely the same thing as Hy-Vee & Baker's yet were dramatically more expensive.

I found the pricing to be pretty similar between the 3. I never saw Albertsons as being more expensive between this trio. If anything, it was HyVee that was usually the pricier of the bunch (and still is)..

In any case, I liked the added variety of grocers. There were items I was always able to buy at Albertsons that I couldn’t readily find at HyVee or Baker’s..and vise-versa between the three stores. It was a nice balance, and all 3 were basically same level of grocery store chain when to came to product and pricing.. It was just nice to have that 3rd chain for (again) variety sake…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

Yes, I appreciate variety and I suppose it's what you're buying at each store. I regularly hit Whole Foods, Natural Grocers, Safeway and Sprouts. Though I rarely buy product at Natural Grocers(expensive) and never buy meat from Sprouts(very expensive).

[Dusty]

We were just at BJ's Wholesale and noticed that have tons of golf cart parking right up front. Yes, this is near a retirement community in Florida...hence golf cart parking. But it made me instantly think of cargo bike parking. All they are doing in taking a standard parking spot and splitting it in half with a line. Add a staple on the lines and you have cargo bike parking.
This comes back to what I was saying. An urban grocery can sacrifice 4-5 stalls to create this. Also, for standard bike parking, you can fit 8-10 bikes in one stall. Using 10 stalls for bikes won't hurt the store, it will only help it.

[Athomsfere]

We were just at BJ's Wholesale and noticed that have tons of golf cart parking right up front. Yes, this is near a retirement community in Florida...hence golf cart parking. But it made me instantly think of cargo bike parking. All they are doing in taking a standard parking spot and splitting it in half with a line. Add a staple on the lines and you have cargo bike parking.
This comes back to what I was saying. An urban grocery can sacrifice 4-5 stalls to create this. Also, for standard bike parking, you can fit 8-10 bikes in one stall. Using 10 stalls for bikes won't hurt the store, it will only help it.

Was just in Madison. Now there is an American city that is actually doing well for bike parking. Not Japan or the Netherlands well, but better than BJ's Wholesale apparently.

Every garage had nice parking, and everywhere you'd want to go had something better than the Omaha bike staples.

[Dusty]

Was just in Madison. Now there is an American city that is actually doing well for bike parking. Not Japan or the Netherlands well, but better than BJ's Wholesale apparently.

Every garage had nice parking, and everywhere you'd want to go had something better than the Omaha bike staples.

You can say any College town tends to have more bike lanes or infrastructure to support the riders.
(Madison, Ann Arbor, Berkeley, etc)

The point I was trying to make is a BJ's in a small rural town in Florida made a decision to provide parking for a different mode outside of the car. In this case, it's golf carts. This parking made me instantly think of cargo bike parking. They didn't hide the parking on the side or behind the building by the dumpster like how Americans plan bike parking. They took away 20 stalls and put them right in front. No shame!

If they can make change, then surely an urban grocery store in Omaha can too. For short term bike parking, I like the staples.
It's simple and creates a uniform look. If you design bike parking to look too decorative or like public art, then that's all it will be.

Added a picture of cargo bike parking. Long skinny lanes with a low staple to lock to. Bike parking does not need to be complicated. If you look at the golf cart parking...add a low staple every other line. Cargo bike parking made easy!