Civic Square (former Civic Auditorium)

[Dusty]

Just to clarify, the article says 200 housing units; I haven't seen anything that specifies they're all apartments. The prior plan called for 20 townhomes. The recent rendering shows some townhome looking units on the NE corner of the development, fronting I-480. Seems dumb, unless there are serious plans to do something about I-480 (sorry for being a broken record).

I don't see the interstate coming down anytime soon. It would need a big project to greenlight the teardown.
A commitment from Council Bluffs to the streetcar line could be one big push. Or a commitment to a Cuming Street streetcar line could be another. If we have both happen, then watch out. The wrecking ball will be swinging! Plus, you would see incredible growth merging the areas together.

[ita]

Just to clarify, the article says 200 housing units; I haven't seen anything that specifies they're all apartments. The prior plan called for 20 townhomes. The recent rendering shows some townhome looking units on the NE corner of the development, fronting I-480. Seems dumb, unless there are serious plans to do something about I-480 (sorry for being a broken record).

I don't see the interstate coming down anytime soon. It would need a big project to greenlight the teardown.
A commitment from Council Bluffs to the streetcar line could be one big push. Or a commitment to a Cuming Street streetcar line could be another. If we have both happen, then watch out. The wrecking ball will be swinging! Plus, you would see incredible growth merging the areas together.

It's on my "top most unlikely things to happen that I want to happen" list for Omaha development. Just so much transformative potential if I-480 and appurtenances were taken down. Though, based on recent history, even if was taken down, the several city blocks it would open for development would likely stay grassy fields for a decade or two.

[Dusty]

I don't see the interstate coming down anytime soon. It would need a big project to greenlight the teardown.
A commitment from Council Bluffs to the streetcar line could be one big push. Or a commitment to a Cuming Street streetcar line could be another. If we have both happen, then watch out. The wrecking ball will be swinging! Plus, you would see incredible growth merging the areas together.

It's on my "top most unlikely things to happen that I want to happen" list for Omaha development. Just so much transformative potential if I-480 and appurtenances were taken down. Though, based on recent history, even if was taken down, the several city blocks it would open for development would likely stay grassy fields for a decade or two.

I don't think it would take decades to redevelop. Downtown has great momentum right now. I will add it to my 480 master plan. Bring that down!

[nativeomahan]

What do some of you have against I-480 wrapping around downtown? It’s an interstate highway. It isn’t disappearing. That sort of thing just doesn’t happen.

[Garrett]

What do some of you have against I-480 wrapping around downtown? It’s an interstate highway. It isn’t disappearing. That sort of thing just doesn’t happen.

Turning the northern section into a boulevard is called for in the urban core plan. And urban highway removal is becoming a lot more common.

[riceweb]

And that northern section of I-480 is pretty pointless. Very low traffic levels. When it reaches end-of-life, it would not make sense to reconstruct it.

[S.O.Boy]

Any word on who the Grocery might be?

[Garrett]

Any word on who the Grocery might be?

I could imagine Whole Foods. I think there was a post a couple months back about them coming to town to scout a new location.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Any word on who the Grocery might be?

I could imagine Whole Foods. I think there was a post a couple months back about them coming to town to scout a new location.

Would be a huge fan of that possibility.. Any reveal is likely a ways away…

Ciao..LiO…Peace

[Coyote]

Any word on who the Grocery might be?

I could imagine Whole Foods. I think there was a post a couple months back about them coming to town to scout a new location.

I think a Whole Foods would take another look at the Civic Square development!

[Stvbec74]

Any word on who the Grocery might be?

I could imagine Whole Foods. I think there was a post a couple months back about them coming to town to scout a new location.

I think a Whole Foods would take another look at the Civic Square development!

If not Whole Foods…Aldi!

[GenX]

One of the things I’m most excited about is the near complete restoration of the street grid. It also seems to anticipate the removal of the 20th street and associated ramps and the removal of 480. If future demand dictates, individual blocks could later be sold off and redeveloped individually.

[GenX]

Any word on who the Grocery might be?

I could imagine Whole Foods. I think there was a post a couple months back about them coming to town to scout a new location.

I think a Whole Foods would take another look at the Civic Square development!

The fresh market sign seems to indicate Hy-Vee…

[Mapguy]

I used to shop at the downtown hyvee in des moines. It was really convenient. They went a little heavy on the groceraunt idea with a lot of food court like options but I usually went for items that I needed for cooking.

Prices were higher but the convenience made it worth it. I always thought it should be more like a true grocery rather than the 60/40 split of prepped food to groceries.

[Doctor Fate]

I used to shop at the downtown hyvee in des moines. It was really convenient. They went a little heavy on the groceraunt idea with a lot of food court like options but I usually went for items that I needed for cooking.

Prices were higher but the convenience made it worth it. I always thought it should be more like a true grocery rather than the 60/40 split of prepped food to groceries.

By brother was a supply chain manager with Hy-Vee for awhile around 2018 and he said they were suffering near seven figure losses company-wide on the prepped meals and restaurant options.

[Garrett]

I used to shop at the downtown hyvee in des moines. It was really convenient. They went a little heavy on the groceraunt idea with a lot of food court like options but I usually went for items that I needed for cooking.

Prices were higher but the convenience made it worth it. I always thought it should be more like a true grocery rather than the 60/40 split of prepped food to groceries.

By brother was a supply chain manager with Hy-Vee for awhile around 2018 and he said they were suffering near seven figure losses company-wide on the prepped meals and restaurant options.

Yeah I’m skeptical on a downtown HyVee for Omaha after the Des Moines one seemed to mostly fail

[nebport5]

The Good:

-Grocery
-Better than the first Lotus plan
-Opening up the street grip
-Overall much improved apartment design
-Taking input from the public


The Bad:

-Still underwhelming overall
-The proximity of condos and apartments with green roofs next to the toxic interstate.
-The office building is rather banal next to the apartments
-lack of mid-rise



Keeping it all in perspective these renderings are only an example of what could end up here. Nothing is guaranteed at this point including grocery. The biggest upgrade here is mostly restoring the grid. That leaves open the possibility of the plans still evolving. I disagree with those deemphasizing the importance of four city blocks in the middle of downtown. It may not be directly on the streetcar line but potentially could be if Sen. Wayne gets his way. I don't think he particularly will but I think a future expanded connector route could may yet make sense. I'm a huge proponent of eliminating this stretch of 480 but agree it's unlikely in the immediate future. With or without 480 imagine if the master plan transit hub came to fruition under 480? That proximity to this site could be significant. While much of the M.P. may now be outdated there's still much to be determined that could still influence this site including redeveloping a razed 480. That said I wonder what the logistical/fiscal possibility of repurposing the eastern part of 480 as a bridge to accommodate the streetcar across the river? I'm no engineer and doubt this feasibility but just thinking out loud due to the 480 upgrades.



Interesting quotes:

From the Nebraska Examiner story... “The design plans for Civic Square will not only fundamentally change the downtown living environment, but the whole Omaha city skyline,” said Arun Agarwal.

From the City Square Omaha site... "White Lotus Group is open to joint venture opportunities with groups that have an interest in participating in the project."

[Erik]

Not every project has to be standout. We need filler projects like this to go with standout projects to add density.

Every city needs this

[skip]

I used to shop at the downtown hyvee in des moines. It was really convenient. They went a little heavy on the groceraunt idea with a lot of food court like options but I usually went for items that I needed for cooking.

Prices were higher but the convenience made it worth it. I always thought it should be more like a true grocery rather than the 60/40 split of prepped food to groceries.

By brother was a supply chain manager with Hy-Vee for awhile around 2018 and he said they were suffering near seven figure losses company-wide on the prepped meals and restaurant options.

To add on that - heard from some folks that Hyvee is having severe financial problems currently. Sounds like there is bankruptcy on the table.

[nebport5]

Not every project has to be standout. We need filler projects like this to go with standout projects to add density.

Every city needs this

True, not every project has to be standout, but let's be honest how often many on this board historically groan(myself included)about mediocre projects. I say that in the context of acknowledging all the great recent/on going projects downtown. The potential of the streetcar post the riverfront redevelopment may continue to yield less groaning. I'm not saying this project is mediocre, though it's not exactly a home run at this point either. I'm all for smart in-fill too. There are many things to like here but I think it's still a wait and see for what all pans out. Therefore, I also think there's still a possibility of something more standout than the current trajectory. I'm also generally more optimistic(cautiously)for Civic Square becoming a more successful development among it's four downtown city blocks vs. the smaller and relatively disappointing Capitol District.

[Bob from Omaha]

Not every project has to be standout. We need filler projects like this to go with standout projects to add density.

Every city needs this

True, not every project has to be standout, but let's be honest how often many on this board historically groan(myself included)about mediocre projects. I say that in the context of acknowledging all the great recent/on going projects downtown. The potential of the streetcar post the riverfront redevelopment may continue to yield less groaning. I'm not saying this project is mediocre, though it's not exactly a home run at this point either. I'm all for smart in-fill too. There are many things to like here but I think it's still a wait and see for what all pans out. Therefore, I also think there's still a possibility of something more standout than the current trajectory. I'm also generally more optimistic(cautiously)for Civic Square becoming a more successful development among it's four downtown city blocks vs. the smaller and relatively disappointing Capitol District.

My own opinion is that this property is not a candidate for a "filler" or even infill project. This a a very large contiguous property and that's rare downtown, although there are some other large chunks of land also available. More than should be as well. Anyway, this while not directly on the proposed streetcar route is still a prime piece of land that is worthy of a signature development. As proposed it falls short of signature status. A cursory look at White Lotus' web site shows a somewhat impressive list of projects. However, I didn't find much in the way of signature projects. I have zero problem with their successes. I've known of them since the 80s. I would have simply hoped for a more significant development on the former civic property. Would I like a 50 story monster? Nope. Would I rather see a 15-20 story residential tower along with the current proposal? Absolutely.

[Dusty]

It makes you wonder if sound bouncing off the interstate is a factor. If you build taller, would the residents on the top floors hear traffic and rumbling every time a car goes by?

[thenewguy]

I used to shop at the downtown hyvee in des moines. It was really convenient. They went a little heavy on the groceraunt idea with a lot of food court like options but I usually went for items that I needed for cooking.

Prices were higher but the convenience made it worth it. I always thought it should be more like a true grocery rather than the 60/40 split of prepped food to groceries.

By brother was a supply chain manager with Hy-Vee for awhile around 2018 and he said they were suffering near seven figure losses company-wide on the prepped meals and restaurant options.

That is true. They had a distribution center for aisles online/meals to go out by gretna, and they shut it down less than a year after opening it. I think the concept was workable where it was at in Des Moines, but they had one here and plans for one around Minneapolis (i believe) and scrapped it because they struggled with quality and consistency. They seem to be doing better running them out of the stores.

[Athomsfere]

It makes you wonder if sound bouncing off the interstate is a factor. If you build taller, would the residents on the top floors hear traffic and rumbling every time a car goes by?

Depends a lot on the construction materials. If it's stick framing and poor insulation overall, yes.

Concrete and double pane glass, shouldn't hear a thing.

[ita]

It makes you wonder if sound bouncing off the interstate is a factor. If you build taller, would the residents on the top floors hear traffic and rumbling every time a car goes by?

Depends a lot on the construction materials. If it's stick framing and poor insulation overall, yes.

Concrete and double pane glass, shouldn't hear a thing.

This is what I was hoping to see with the redux if they kept residential along I-480; taller residential buildings adjacent to I-480 to put residents above the noise and light pollution. Alas that is not the case. Is there additional noise due to the elevated highway, like reverb from vibrations versus being on a traditional street like Dodge along downtown/midtown?

[Toto]

For what the civic site is and where it's located, this is a pretty ambitious project.

I agree and I am going to go out on a limb here, its too ambitious and it will never happen. Nothing against White Lotus, but they just don't have what it will take to get this off the ground. They are competing against some highly experienced and deep pocketed competition downtown. I really hope I'm wrong.

[Garrett]

For what the civic site is and where it's located, this is a pretty ambitious project.

I agree and I am going to go out on a limb here, its too ambitious and it will never happen. Nothing against White Lotus, but they just don't have what it will take to get this off the ground. They are competing against some highly experienced and deep pocketed competition downtown. I really hope I'm wrong.

I feel like I’ve seen a fair number of ambitious White Lotus projects proposed over the years that have yet to get off the ground.

[Athomsfere]

It makes you wonder if sound bouncing off the interstate is a factor. If you build taller, would the residents on the top floors hear traffic and rumbling every time a car goes by?

Depends a lot on the construction materials. If it's stick framing and poor insulation overall, yes.

Concrete and double pane glass, shouldn't hear a thing.

This is what I was hoping to see with the redux if they kept residential along I-480; taller residential buildings adjacent to I-480 to put residents above the noise and light pollution. Alas that is not the case. Is there additional noise due to the elevated highway, like reverb from vibrations versus being on a traditional street like Dodge along downtown/midtown?

Not a traffic engineer by any stretch. I've always assumed the biggest issue with traffic noise is the angle of attack of the source (tires, engines) and the ear.

See my rough illustration:

[Bob from Omaha]

Pick a building in Chicago near the el tracks. How about a building in Manhattan pretty much anywhere near Central Park, or maybe any house near where I live that overlooks I-696.
First, that's part of living in the central city. Second, in a word, soundproofing.

I've lived near freeways that are many times busier than the interstate in downtown Omaha. I never minded the noise. Most of the time it's a dull roar and after the first night I guess I just got used to it. Honestly, unless you live in the panhandle of Nebraska you're going to get noise. I'd imagine those who live in the takeoff/landing pattern of a busy airport have a much bigger issue.

[Big E]

I havent lived more than a few blocks away from very active train tracks (freight, not commuter) in over 20 years. Add a police and fire staton on top of that, plus a very popular and loud nightclub across the street for the last 15. Only noise that ever bothers me is my downstairs neighbor's dog.

Seriously, there's no regular occuring noise going on with a nearby freeway that a pair of $0.79 earplugs wont fix when you're trying to sleep, or a TV on about 30% won't drown out when you're awake.

[ita]

Pick a building in Chicago near the el tracks. How about a building in Manhattan pretty much anywhere near Central Park, or maybe any house near where I live that overlooks I-696.
First, that's part of living in the central city. Second, in a word, soundproofing.

I've lived near freeways that are many times busier than the interstate in downtown Omaha. I never minded the noise. Most of the time it's a dull roar and after the first night I guess I just got used to it. Honestly, unless you live in the panhandle of Nebraska you're going to get noise. I'd imagine those who live in the takeoff/landing pattern of a busy airport have a much bigger issue.

Good points. On Oahu, the main highway cuts through downtown, and you have many multifamily and single family homes leering over the highway. Omaha has plenty of homes fronting I-75. I guess it's not ideal if you have a choice. Hopefully White Lotus steps up the soundproofing for the properties on the northern border. I guess if you choose to live somewhere like what they have planned at Civic Square, you're going to be willing to deal with noise.

[nebport5]

It makes you wonder if sound bouncing off the interstate is a factor. If you build taller, would the residents on the top floors hear traffic and rumbling every time a car goes by?

Depends a lot on the construction materials. If it's stick framing and poor insulation overall, yes.

Concrete and double pane glass, shouldn't hear a thing.

I wouldn't count on that. I would bet on future residents hearing noise. Most new residential construction is built to make money. They don't give a shat about noise.

[Athomsfere]

It makes you wonder if sound bouncing off the interstate is a factor. If you build taller, would the residents on the top floors hear traffic and rumbling every time a car goes by?

Depends a lot on the construction materials. If it's stick framing and poor insulation overall, yes.

Concrete and double pane glass, shouldn't hear a thing.

I wouldn't count on that. I would bet on future residents hearing noise. Most new residential construction is built to make money. They don't give a shat about noise.

5 over 1 by definition is wood...

But my point was, it depends on the materials. I too doubt a ton of attention is going to go into making the units as quiet as possible.

[NEDodger]

For what the civic site is and where it's located, this is a pretty ambitious project.

I agree and I am going to go out on a limb here, its too ambitious and it will never happen. Nothing against White Lotus, but they just don't have what it will take to get this off the ground. They are competing against some highly experienced and deep pocketed competition downtown. I really hope I'm wrong.

I feel like I’ve seen a fair number of ambitious White Lotus projects proposed over the years that have yet to get off the ground.

I’m kind of in the same boat. Part of me hopes there is NOT additional pressure to make this bigger, because it may increase the likelihood that it doesn’t happen? The current design may be the most achievable.

[ita]

We should be seeing this on the June planning board right? They're supposed to start getting permits by July. I am wanting to see how many for sale residential units they're planning for and possible price point.

[Louie]

For what the civic site is and where it's located, this is a pretty ambitious project.

I agree and I am going to go out on a limb here, its too ambitious and it will never happen. Nothing against White Lotus, but they just don't have what it will take to get this off the ground. They are competing against some highly experienced and deep pocketed competition downtown. I really hope I'm wrong.

I feel like I’ve seen a fair number of ambitious White Lotus projects proposed over the years that have yet to get off the ground.

I’m kind of in the same boat. Part of me hopes there is NOT additional pressure to make this bigger, because it may increase the likelihood that it doesn’t happen? The current design may be the most achievable.

Same, just get these 4 blocks developed so demand forces other developments to go vertical. It's just so much unused land right now.

[nebport5]

Pick a building in Chicago near the el tracks. How about a building in Manhattan pretty much anywhere near Central Park, or maybe any house near where I live that overlooks I-696.
First, that's part of living in the central city. Second, in a word, soundproofing.

I've lived near freeways that are many times busier than the interstate in downtown Omaha. I never minded the noise. Most of the time it's a dull roar and after the first night I guess I just got used to it. Honestly, unless you live in the panhandle of Nebraska you're going to get noise. I'd imagine those who live in the takeoff/landing pattern of a busy airport have a much bigger issue.

True, noise is a part of city life. However, I have to say having just returned from Manhattan, outside of touristy areas like Broadway/The Theater District, Madison Ave, I found it surprising quieter than one might expect.

As for this development I personally would be less concerned with noise vs. the toxicity of 480.

[GenX]

After marinating on it a bit, I’ve come to the following opinion:

This development should, at minimum, be as tall as the surrounding buildings so as to not look like a hole. Ideally it should be taller (at least one being 15-20 floors), even if that means scaling back on the rest for now, but still including a restoration of the street grid. This development barely even matches the height of the old Civic Auditorium as proposed.

[MTO]

Agreed, this is not the right project being this close to the CBD.

[Athomsfere]

After marinating on it a bit, I’ve come to the following opinion:

This development should, at minimum, be as tall as the surrounding buildings so as to not look like a hole. Ideally it should be taller (at least one being 15-20 floors), even if that means scaling back on the rest for now, but still including a restoration of the street grid. This development barely even matches the height of the old Civic Auditorium as proposed.

It really is. 5 over 1 and one taller builder for the project. Surrounded by parking lots, garages, a highway, and even a soccer field less than a block away.

What the core needs is housing and a grocery store. This is that.

Anything more than what's proposed is also great. But nearby has so many parking lots to be filled in with more interesting developments. I have no qualms with this as infill there.

I wish it was more, because it's modest infill really. But it is what we really need, and we shouldn't demand more IMO.