Passenger rail between Omaha and Lincoln

[Coyote]

Group calls on Nebraska to update plan,
create passenger rail between Omaha and Lincoln

Advocates for passenger rail transportation in Nebraska renewed their calls Saturday for more state action on proposed rail projects, including a long-dreamed commuter line between Omaha and Lincoln. Chief among the issues raised is the fact the state hasn't updated its rail plan, a critical document needed to secure federal funding, in 20 years.

Nebraska’s statewide rail plan was last updated in 2003, making it the most out-of-date plan in the country, and rail advocates say that has held Nebraska's railroads back. Under guidance from Federal Rail Administration, the rail branch of the U.S. Department of Transportation, state DOTs are supposed to update the railroad document, called a state rail plan, every four years. The state of New York is next in line and was last updated its rail plan in 2009, while all other states have produced a rail plan within the last 10 years. The document lays out a state’s vision for rail development and projects, while also summarizing facts and details about railroads in the state.

A lack of an up-to-date rail plan is probably the biggest blow to Nebraska’s passenger rail proponents like Richard Schmeling, who is a member of the passenger rail advocacy group ProRail Nebraska. When Schmeling has asked the Nebraska Department of Transportation why the agency hasn’t produced a rail plan in the last 18 years, he said he’s told Nebraska is just watching to see what other states do.

[Garrett]

Just watching to do what other states do? Inspiring leadership.

[Bob from Omaha]

Just watching to do what other states do? Inspiring leadership.

Hey. All states are the same. Why not just wait to see what Alaska, Hawaii, California and Vermont do and then do that? Why bother with all this proactive baloney?

[strangerthings]

Omaha - Lincoln - St. Joseph - KC

Would this be possible?

[Garrett]

Omaha - Lincoln - St. Joseph - KC

Would this be possible?

For the scale of this project, no. Beyond that, any route to KC would probably go through Omaha, not Lincoln based on existing tracks.

[OmahaOmaha]

Oh yes. Let’s build a passenger rail line between Lincoln and Omaha that’s going to cost millions and millions to be build and millions annually to maintain, so people can travel back and forth to see Nebraska and Creighton games. Come on. It’s just a short drive between Omaha and Lincoln. By the time you have to drive to or take public transportation to a train station, and then have to arrange transportation in your destination city to get where you’re going, your trip could easily take more than twice as long as driving. If there is really such a high demand for passenger rail and it’s feasible, let it be privately funded and privately run. Don’t be putting more of a burden on taxpayers for this. I know my opinion isn’t going to be popular here, so let the bashing begin.

[stormchaser]

Oh yes. Let’s build a passenger rail line between Lincoln and Omaha that’s going to cost millions and millions to be build and millions annually to maintain, so people can travel back and forth to see Nebraska and Creighton games. Come on. It’s just a short drive between Omaha and Lincoln. By the time you have to drive to or take public transportation to a train station, and then have to arrange transportation in your destination city to get where you’re going, your trip could easily take more than twice as long as driving. If there is really such a high demand for passenger rail and it’s feasible, let it be privately funded and privately run. Don’t be putting more of a burden on taxpayers for this. I know my opinion isn’t going to be popular here, so let the bashing begin.

I think you’re making some pretty big assumptions so based on that alone, you’re pretty much asking to be bashed (not just here - anywhere).

“To be used to see Nebraska and Creighton games” - sure, that’s probably ONE of the uses anyway. But not the only as you’re insinuating.

“Millions annually to maintain” - based on what??

There are several other assumptions you’re making but my point has already been made so no sense continuing to point them out.

Things like this are an investment as they often lead to additional development and consequently additional tax revenue and can pay for themselves if done right. While I agree, it may or may not be feasible (depending on the plan), it’s silly and EXTREMELY short sighted to immediately dismiss it because they might use tax payer funds for it.

[BRoss]

Public transportation is not supposed to be profitable. Waiting for it to be privately funded doesn't make sense. It's meant to be an affordable service that benefits the taxpayers of the communities it serves.

And while there are many more use cases than sports, one big benefit on that front is giving a nice option to get more drunk drivers off the road after games. NDOT publishes reminders/warnings about impaired driving before home games each year during football season.

Beyond that, there are a fair amount that commute for work everyday. How many cars could this get off the road? That helps with congestion, wear, and pollution. Not needing to widen a highway saves us a lot of money overall.

Also, where's the complaining about the millions we spend on roads? Looking at the 2023 NDOT Surface Transportation Program, we are set to spend $549 million this fiscal year alone at the state level.

[Garrett]

Let's also not frame disagreeing with your opinion and debating as bashing. We tend to keep things fairly mature and respectable here.

BRoss makes the exact points I would make in this situation. Furthermore if Lincoln or Omaha were to build another parking garage tomorrow costing millions and millions of dollars and let people park in it for free, almost no one would bat an eye. Or adding another lane to I-80. Or any other number of road works.

[Coyote]

OPINION: We need a train line from Lincoln to Omaha

If you live in Lincoln, there’s a good chance you’ve had to go to Omaha at least once. If you’re lucky, those times are few and far between and you have a car or some form of reliable transportation. If you aren’t as lucky, you may be one of the many folks who either has to commute between the cities for work or worse, you don’t have a reliable way to get there, stretching the commute to an unworkable length. As the populations of both cities grow, so too do the number of commuters and tourists traveling between the Omaha and Lincoln metro areas. To accommodate, it’s time to reconsider a high-speed commuter railway between Omaha and Lincoln.

Lincoln and Omaha are about an hour apart by car, but folks who don’t have access to a reliable means of transportation can find this gap near impossible. Aside from being a more than $40 round trip, the hour-long trip estimate assumes minimal levels of traffic and no detours. This is also heavily dependent on available rides. The 2003 study estimated the high-speed commuter rail could offer trains spaced 15 minutes apart during peak commuting periods, a marked advantage to the twice daily bus trips currently available.

[Athomsfere]

My only gripe / points of concern would be:

Both cities need better transit before this is really workable. But if Omaha and Lincoln build it, maybe it could be the kick in the pants to build good transit in each city. LNK get's a streetcar!? And maybe a BRT from south LNK to downtown.

Second concern: No park and rides in either principle city. Maybe it's fine for Gretna, but if we could at least get anchor tenants for the in-city stops to make them useful that would be amazing.

[Bob from Omaha]

While I find the response "We're waiting to see what others do" moronic and amazingly short sighted, and while I do give credence to those who see such an endeavor as a gimmick, the potential linking Omaha and Lincoln via some kind of rail service is neither a gimmick nor a waste of money. Hear me out.

Omaha at just short of a million people and Lincoln at about 350,000 have the potential to be a much more powerful combination than two separate cities, not to mention the potential of the space between them.
Having said the above the most prudent way to explore the concept of rail between the two must be only a part of a larger process. And that process should include economic and recreational development. Which industries should the cities look to market to? High tech? Food processing? Military? Government? Intense manufacturing? Medical products?
What are the strengths of each city and where do those strengths merge?

Just building a rail link and hoping they will come is short sighted and so is simply saying that it's a short drive. Why not think outside the box and not follow the leader? It took a generation to bring casinos to the west side of the Missouri River while providing the Iowa West Foundation billions for pretty things in Council Bluffs.

Clock's ticking. Time for leadership

[Brad]

For the scale of this project, no. Beyond that, any route to KC would probably go through Omaha, not Lincoln based on existing tracks.

BNSF has a line from Lincoln to St Joe. to KC

Screenshot 2023-03-05 153321.png

[Athomsfere]

Man, a lot of that route is just sloooow.

Reminds me how much we need to change with how we manage our rail networks and let freight dictate all the terms...

[ita]

I found this while looking for the old Lincoln-Omaha commuter rail study. Someone did a brief look into possible TOD sites along the possible rail route.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/52 ... 02d4708e3f

Also, found this interesting article about the US vs Europe debate regarding passenger rails (Omaha and Lincoln get mentions as part of a hypothetical I-35 based route):

https://www.railwayage.com/news/the-big ... d-cook-it/

[MadJack]

An Omaha-to-Lincoln high-speed rail line is a very expensive "nice-to-have," but is absolutely unjustifiable. There just isn't that much traffic. Neither city is terribly dense and there's no density in between them. The combined population of the two metro areas is only 1.4 million. We just don't have enough people to justify a 60-mile commuter rail line. For all the transit-oriented folks on this forum, and certainly all the development-minded people, this topic is just a distraction in my opinion. We need more ORBT and streetcar routes INSIDE Omaha long before we should even think about transit lines to some 300,000-person city an hour's drive to the west. I say we stay laser focused on building Omaha into all it can be.

[ita]

Counter point; we dream too small. Look at TRAX in the Salt Lake Valley. Initial line in 2000 to Draper was 15 miles in a metro about the size of Omaha-CB is now. They have two additional lines now.

[Athomsfere]

I found this while looking for the old Lincoln-Omaha commuter rail study. Someone did a brief look into possible TOD sites along the possible rail route.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/52 ... 02d4708e3f

Also, found this interesting article about the US vs Europe debate regarding passenger rails (Omaha and Lincoln get mentions as part of a hypothetical I-35 based route):

https://www.railwayage.com/news/the-big ... d-cook-it/

I especially love the second article. It's what I've been saying for some time.

I still think Omaha and Lincoln need better transit first, of course. But there is no reason we can't build both cities towards this.

Also, by my count, the hypothetical OMA-LNK-CB CSA would be closer to 1.6 million by 2050.

If we did this half right, 5k / sqmi should be easy for average density in both cities. With pockets of much higher.

[TransitOriented]

Counter point; we dream too small.

We're just extremely conservative. It seems to work for us during economic downturns, but doesn't help during upturns.

[ita]

Counter point; we dream too small.

We're just extremely conservative. It seems to work for us during economic downturns, but doesn't help during upturns.

That's a good point. Nebraska's politics at the state level wants less public services, not more. Smaller government means unlikelihood of significant transit investment, at least at the state level. NDOT didn't even want to fund the feasible and low investment intercity bus route.

[PWL73316]

Second concern: No park and rides in either principle city.

If you have a car why wouldn't you just drive to Omaha or Lincoln? I don't see how that proposition would make sense without at least one of the cities being massively transformed by transit.

Park and rides are really only useful when congestion is so bad that you need to take the cars out of the physical space so the increased volume of the transit allows people to move around faster than they could with a car. That won't be the case in Omaha or Lincoln for the foreseeable future.

[Athomsfere]

Second concern: No park and rides in either principle city.

If you have a car why wouldn't you just drive to Omaha or Lincoln? I don't see how that proposition would make sense without at least one of the cities being massively transformed by transit.

Park and rides are really only useful when congestion is so bad that you need to take the cars out of the physical space so the increased volume of the transit allows people to move around faster than they could with a car. That won't be the case in Omaha or Lincoln for the foreseeable future.

Because, as I've tried to say again and again, they don't actually help cities or their transit. They create dead zones for multimodal transit where the only choices are to either drive, or drive to the park and ride.

Garrett can probably put it into words better than I can. Or the Strong Towns video he posted recently.

The much, much better choice that fills the same space but is useful is what Japan or some of the EU does.

1. Make the parking area multimodal, provide amenities like parking, bike parking, good walking and bike access, and make it a terminus or major stop for bus routes

2. Make the pedestrian experience pleasant. Shade, tress, shelter from the elements.

3. Make it a local destination in itself. Live across the street, maybe go to the station and grab lunch and T shirt you like last time.

4. Make it useful for transit users so they don't have to drive to a store from the park and ride before driving home. Example groceries. Put a grocery store in the "park and ride" so that when they get off the train, they can grab groceries before taking a car, bus, bike or walking the last few blocks or miles home.

5. Put hotels and / or housing in the immediate area

Like, peruse this bad boy
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5775939 ... 384!8i8192

They did it there, and it's a city of 466k, and 2,600 people per square mile.

[Dusty]

I don't feel there is enough demand to support a train to Lincoln. You might see a surge on Husker game days, but that's about it. It seems like another big idea to absorb Lincoln's population into the Omaha metro. In my mind, a fake way to show we are growing. The city has come up with multiple ideas to merge us together: commuter train, giant lake, amusement park, large employer, etc.

We need to grow the city intrinsically by building up, and not out. Building better transit options to connect the streets we have and instead of sprawling out. If we were to build a commuter rail, I would think Kansas City would bring the most passengers. From a connectibility standpoint, a run to Des Moine would be appealing. This would set the stage for Des Moines to expand the route to Minneapolis or Chicago.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

I don't feel there is enough demand to support a train to Lincoln. You might see a surge on Husker game days, but that's about it.

That might be the only way it works right now. Iowa had such a train for Hawkeye game days. It has been discontinued, but I don't believe it went very far so it wasn't all that useful.

[Dusty]

Plan B....We bring back Megabus and have it run to Lincoln only on game days! Problem solved. LOL!

[Garrett]

I don't feel there is enough demand to support a train to Lincoln. You might see a surge on Husker game days, but that's about it. It seems like another big idea to absorb Lincoln's population into the Omaha metro. In my mind, a fake way to show we are growing. The city has come up with multiple ideas to merge us together: commuter train, giant lake, amusement park, large employer, etc.

We need to grow the city intrinsically by building up, and not out. Building better transit options to connect the streets we have and instead of sprawling out. If we were to build a commuter rail, I would think Kansas City would bring the most passengers. From a connectibility standpoint, a run to Des Moine would be appealing. This would set the stage for Des Moines to expand the route to Minneapolis or Chicago.

A train would actually do more to encourage density in both communities, and hopefully any of the in between stops.

[ita]

I know we are talking about intercity rail, but when people say that we're too small, not enough density, etc., there are always examples out there showing that how even without optimal macro metrics, passenger rail can be successful. Sorry for another comparo with a Canadian city, but look at Calgary's CTrain. Calgary developed the initial line in the 80's when they were around the size of Des Moines's metro today. They are closer to OKC now. Anyway, that midsize metro currently has one of busiest LRT systems in North America (per wikipedia). In 2019, it was #2 by daily boardings, only behind Toronto. It beats out all other major US city, including LA, Boston, SF, and Portland. Also, per wiki, 45% of workers work in downtown, but we can have similar shifts in employment concentrations back to the urban core and downtown Lincoln with infrastructure investments like LRT. And agreed with Garrett, if we build LRT, areas around the stations will be built with more density. I believe that would occur even in bedroom towns like Waverly, Greenwood, Ashland, and Gretna. Maybe you wouldn't see mid rise and high rise development, but 2-5 story mixed use buildings, revitalization and/or development of main streets.

[Dusty]

I never said Omaha is too small to support commuter rail. I'm saying go after the connection that would bring the most ridership and economic development for building it. To me, that would be Omaha to Kansas City. I have previously mentioned a concept of converting I-480 into a large transit station that could tie in local transit (BRT, buses, streetcars, etc) with the capability of adding commuter rail options to Kansas City, Des Moines, Denver, etc.

To me, this should be our long range goal. In meantime, we need to be fixing the local issues. Improving the busing system with dedicated bus lanes, changing land use around stations, breaking people's perception of using transit, attracting better developers, involving the community more, etc.

It's better to aim high and fall a little short than to aim low and succeed.

[Garrett]

I never said Omaha is too small to support commuter rail. I'm saying go after the connection that would bring the most ridership and economic development for building it. To me, that would be Omaha to Kansas City. I have previously mentioned a concept of converting I-480 into a large transit station that could tie in local transit (BRT, buses, streetcars, etc) with the capability of adding commuter rail options to Kansas City, Des Moines, Denver, etc.

To me, this should be our long range goal. In meantime, we need to be fixing the local issues. Improving the busing system with dedicated bus lanes, changing land use around stations, breaking people's perception of using transit, attracting better developers, involving the community more, etc.

It's better to aim high and fall a little short than to aim low and succeed.

Commuter rail has extremely different objectives than the regional rail you’re describing. Lincoln is 58 miles away from Omaha, or about an hour to 90 minute train ride if things go at typical commuter rail speeds. Commuter rail we’re talking about the range of 30 minute to an hour headways on the more frequent end, with a decent amount of stops at intermediate points and small towns. No one is going to be commuting the 3ish hours from KC or Des Moines to commute for work. In NYC, I can take the Long Island Railroad or Metro North Railroad for say, 90 minutes to get to some small towns outside of the city. Or, I can take a regional rail via Amtrak to get to big cities like Philadelphia. They’re different purposes and different systems.

[Dusty]

You are right, Garrett! My objective is different. We have lost a ton of young professionals to other bigger cites.
Omaha's continues to plan their projects towards small farm towns in Nebraska so we can brand ourselves as the Big O. I feel this has contributed to the brain drain of the city. Building an elevated Dodge Expressway is a perfect example. Tons on money wasted on a project to attract a few residents from Fremont to come and work in Omaha. An expressway does not bring tax revenue back into the city like transit projects do. A commuter rail is a similar mindset. Let's build a train so 10 residents in Waverly, NE can come to Omaha. Yes, a train will bring more revenue than an expressway, but the scope we are focusing on is a small market. Waverly goes from a gas station town to a gas station with a Starbucks and Walgreens. Big eye roll here!

We need to be focusing on improving our bus system within the city to pull people back that moved to Denver, Minneapolis, Chicago, etc. Rail connections to bigger cities are meant to be high speed to increase tourist dollars.

Trust me, I agree with you that a commuter rail could be incredible. A great example is Sun rail in Orlando. I just think our busing system needs to be priority one. Otherwise, a Lincoln resident rides to rail to Omaha where they are stuck. They don't have a car and the busing options are inefficient to get around.

[Linkin5]

Building an elevated Dodge Expressway is a perfect example. Tons on money wasted on a project to attract a few residents from Fremont to come and work in Omaha.

Do you think Dodge Expressway was built as an attraction? It was built because 114th and Dodge intersection was a complete disaster and did its job to alleviate daily traffic jams.

[Garrett]

Building an elevated Dodge Expressway is a perfect example. Tons on money wasted on a project to attract a few residents from Fremont to come and work in Omaha.

Do you think Dodge Expressway was built as an attraction? It was built because 114th and Dodge intersection was a complete disaster and did its job to alleviate daily traffic jams.

I think he's referring more broadly to the entire expressway project from 132nd west, not just the overpass project.

[daveoma]

Perhaps we need a new thread to discuss regional rail. Personally, I love the idea of Omaha someday being a regional rail hub with links to DSM, KC, Sioux City, Sioux Falls, and Minneapolis. Maybe the demand isn't there, but it's a great thought experiment.

[Linkin5]

Building an elevated Dodge Expressway is a perfect example. Tons on money wasted on a project to attract a few residents from Fremont to come and work in Omaha.

Do you think Dodge Expressway was built as an attraction? It was built because 114th and Dodge intersection was a complete disaster and did its job to alleviate daily traffic jams.

I think he's referring more broadly to the entire expressway project from 132nd west, not just the overpass project.

That argument seems even more absurd then. I’m a proponent of building more mass transit now and in the future and lessening our reliance on automobiles, but in the meantime you have to have infrastructure that allows people to get around. Dodge Expressway wasn’t built for Fremont, it was built for Omaha residents to not sit in traffic.

[strangerthings]

MODOT asked the state to fund Amtrak Kansas City to St Joseph with the intent to connect up to Omaha

[thenewguy]

that would be awesome

[ita]

MODOT asked the state to fund Amtrak Kansas City to St Joseph with the intent to connect up to Omaha

That's interesting. The NEDOT is not as proactive nor open to public transit projects. Is there an article with details? Are they thinking about using existing track infrastructure? I reviewed, briefly, Amtrak's plan for future growth that they released either this year or last and there was no new north-south connections contemplated through KC or Omaha.

[Louie]

I'm very intrigued by this.

[Garrett]

MODOT asked the state to fund Amtrak Kansas City to St Joseph with the intent to connect up to Omaha

That's interesting. The NEDOT is not as proactive nor open to public transit projects. Is there an article with details? Are they thinking about using existing track infrastructure? I reviewed, briefly, Amtrak's plan for future growth that they released either this year or last and there was no new north-south connections contemplated through KC or Omaha.

If the funding is there I doubt Amtrak is gonna say no.

[Athomsfere]

Hopefully if we fund something we can also get some dedicated ROW for Amtrak to be able to run service on schedule...