Pedestrian Tunnels and Overpasses

[Renovator2559]

One of the complaints of Midtown Crossing, is how Dodge street borders Midtown Crossing and isolates the north from the South.

Have anyone raised the question or idea of tunneling a few blocks of Dodge street, thereby removing the Dodge street barrier to the north side of Midtown Crossing? Thereby creating a pedestrian plaza and even building 6 story buildings on the north side. In the currently unusable parcels of land in the north?

How expensive would this be and are there any issues with such a project?
Are there better approaches to remedying the isolationist problem in the Midtown area?

How would a tunnel look, for the length of the blocks below? Since, the elevation dips low close to Park Avenue, this could be a perfect exit point of the tunnel.

[BRoss]

I don't think a tunnel is fiscally feasible.

I lived down there in a condo for a few years and would occasionally walk the neighborhood north of there, but yeah, I did mostly stay south of Dodge because it wasn't great to cross.

I think a pedestrian bridge over 31st St and Dodge connecting Turner Park and the greenspace east of Turner Park Apartments would be nice and help bridge the two sides together. 32nd Ave and Dodge would be another ok spot for a pedestrian bridge, but a little more tucked away.

[Renovator2559]

I don't think a tunnel is fiscally feasible.

I lived down there in a condo for a few years and would occasionally walk the neighborhood north of there, but yeah, I did mostly stay south of Dodge because it wasn't great to cross.

I think a pedestrian bridge over 31st St and Dodge connecting Turner Park and the greenspace east of Turner Park Apartments would be nice and help bridge the two sides together. 32nd Ave and Dodge would be another ok spot for a pedestrian bridge, but a little more tucked away.

Following the quick patch of pedestrian bridges (which are car infrastructure) have shown they are no longer ideal as a real solution. We shouldn't make pedestrians 2nd class citizens in a walk-able area.

There isn't really anything north of Midtown Crossing, because Midtown Crossing was created in an area that was decimated by car first policies, so of course there is not much to see north of there. If this area is more pedestrianized, the area will be more attractive for further development, thereby expanding the Midtown Crossing area.




Already the master plan has about 6 blocks of development to be converted along the i480 exits and the future suggested 30th streetcar line.

Well Washington DC does a good job in creating tunnels and many other great cities have no difficulty in doing so, even other international cities have the ability of creating tunnels without any problems.

How come in Omaha, we find it difficult to do at least one, especially in an which would make it a pedestrian's paradise as well as open additional lots for redevelopments?

[PotatoeEatsFish]

With the amount of pedestrian accidents along Dodge in this stretched it’s disgusting the city has never made a bridge or tunnel to get over Dodge St. The only one is all the way by UNO. If they want to push mass transit you need an actually walkable city.

[PotatoeEatsFish]

With the amount of pedestrian accidents along Dodge in this stretch it’s disgusting the city has never made a bridge or tunnel to get over Dodge St. The only one is all the way by UNO. If they want to push mass transit you need an actually walkable city.

[Renovator2559]

With the amount of pedestrian accidents along Dodge in this stretched it’s disgusting the city has never made a bridge or tunnel to get over Dodge St. The only one is all the way by UNO. If they want to push mass transit you need an actually walkable city.

I didn't know that Dodge Street was a magnet for pedestrian accidents, how tragic. I know that when I go to Lola's; that area is very sketch when walking through the "blackstone size sidewalks" along Dodge.

Yet another reason to make the pedestrian experience better along Dodge street in the eastern side of Omaha, where a vibrant urban environment matters.

[Garrett]

I would sooner see Dodge narrowed than a multiple hundred million $, at least, tunnel built for a few blocks.

[Renovator2559]

I would sooner see Dodge narrowed than a multiple hundred million $, at least, tunnel built for a few blocks.

I agree, its idealistic that a portion of Dodge Street would be tunneled due to the cost.

Still the dieting of Dodge Street is a less expensive solution that will also be wonderful to see.

[Athomsfere]

With the amount of pedestrian accidents along Dodge in this stretch it’s disgusting the city has never made a bridge or tunnel to get over Dodge St. The only one is all the way by UNO. If they want to push mass transit you need an actually walkable city.

I'd argue and rather see a reduction. Bring it down to 2 + 2, tighten up that turn onto Turner Blvd, bring the lane widths down to 10 feet, as I believe they are more like 12 now.

[Dusty]

Cities don't do tunnels anymore. I'm sure some of you remember the tunnel under 52nd and NW Radial (By Benson High School). It became a nuisance for the city. Constantly filling up with homeless. It was incredibly unsafe to walk through as people reported being mugged or ruffed up in the tunnel.

I agree with Garrett and Athomsfere. A road diet will force cars to slow down and make it safer for pedestrians. It doesn't mean we have to bust up the street and move the curb either. We could just convert one of the lanes for transit or protected bikes. Adding space for pedestrian refuge islands would help as well.

[mgoett]

There was a tunnel at 52nd and Dodge. I have never been in it but have drove by the entrance many times

[Athomsfere]

There was a tunnel at 52nd and Dodge. I have never been in it but have drove by the entrance many times

It is still here. It's cool, but has some real issues. And I mean "real issues".

It's a little narrow, and has a pole at the entrance / exit. These have the combined effect of forcing bikes to be walked. I'd hate to try to get a cargo bike or a bike with a trailer with the kids through there, if even possible.

The entrance and exit is steep. Pretty sure it would not meet ADA requirements for a wheelchair.

Its still a great addition to the area, and if we HAD to do more of these they aren't the worst. But it's still car infrastructure: It exists primarily to let as many cars through as possible unimpeded rather than to help any form of multimodalism. I'd prefer we work on building our streets better rather than trying to shoehorn all of the second class citizens (bikes, pedestrians, busses) into what ever is left over.

[Dundeemaha]

As a kid it felt like a crowning achievement the first time I was able to make it all the way up the exit without getting off my bike to walk it.

[mgoett]

[Brad]

The entrance and exit is steep. Pretty sure it would not meet ADA requirements for a wheelchair.

An ADA ramp can only rise 2.5' for every 30 feet in length and then it needs a flat landing before the next 30' segment can start. How deep do you think that tunnel is? If the bottom is 10 feet below grade, there would need to be a 136' long ramp at both ends, and its nowhere near that long.

[MTO]

I don't think a tunnel is fiscally feasible.

I lived down there in a condo for a few years and would occasionally walk the neighborhood north of there, but yeah, I did mostly stay south of Dodge because it wasn't great to cross.

I think a pedestrian bridge over 31st St and Dodge connecting Turner Park and the greenspace east of Turner Park Apartments would be nice and help bridge the two sides together. 32nd Ave and Dodge would be another ok spot for a pedestrian bridge, but a little more tucked away.

Following the quick patch of pedestrian bridges (which are car infrastructure) have shown they are no longer ideal as a real solution. We shouldn't make pedestrians 2nd class citizens in a walk-able area.

There isn't really anything north of Midtown Crossing, because Midtown Crossing was created in an area that was decimated by car first policies, so of course there is not much to see north of there. If this area is more pedestrianized, the area will be more attractive for further development, thereby expanding the Midtown Crossing area.




Already the master plan has about 6 blocks of development to be converted along the i480 exits and the future suggested 30th streetcar line.

Well Washington DC does a good job in creating tunnels and many other great cities have no difficulty in doing so, even other international cities have the ability of creating tunnels without any problems.

How come in Omaha, we find it difficult to do at least one, especially in an which would make it a pedestrian's paradise as well as open additional lots for redevelopments?

They’ll be arguing over most of that map for years to come. But that rerouting the 30th Street off/on ramps is a no-brainer. That should be in MAPA’s short term plans already.

[Athomsfere]

The entrance and exit is steep. Pretty sure it would not meet ADA requirements for a wheelchair.

An ADA ramp can only rise 2.5' for every 30 feet in length and then it needs a flat landing before the next 30' segment can start. How deep do you think that tunnel is? If the bottom is 10 feet below grade, there would need to be a 136' long ramp at both ends, and its nowhere near that long.

The point in it's entirety was the issues with that tunnel. So I guess you confirmed it. I never ever tried to measure it, I just know when I take it I know it couldn't really be built today.

Same with the bridge over Dodge at Memorial Park.

[Renovator2559]

Cities don't do tunnels anymore. I'm sure some of you remember the tunnel under 52nd and NW Radial (By Benson High School). It became a nuisance for the city. Constantly filling up with homeless. It was incredibly unsafe to walk through as people reported being mugged or ruffed up in the tunnel.
I agree with Garrett and Athomsfere. A road diet will force cars to slow down and make it safer for pedestrians. It doesn't mean we have to bust up the street and move the curb either. We could just convert one of the lanes for transit or protected bikes. Adding space for pedestrian refuge islands would help as well.

Though we are talking tunnels for cars only, no homeless congregation room.

Dodge street would dip into a tunnel for 4 blocks or so and exit on the Park Ave intersection. The tunnel "roof" would then serve as a pedestrian plaza for Midtown Crossing and possibly development on the currently unusable lots to the north. (These are just ideas, so these should be regarded as just a concept to the isolation problem of Midtwon Crossing)


DC has 3 that go through the National mall and even a city I viaited in Mexico called Aguascalientes, has two tunnels under the giant plaza.

We don't often cover the shortfalls or benefits of tunnels, since they are not built these days.

Any pointers that any of you guys have on tunnels, their benefits and drawbacks would satiate my curiosity on tunnels.

There are so many dreams that people share, so it's good to clarify if those dreams are just too out of budget or just don't provide the benefits claimed.

[ProgKingHughesker]

There was a tunnel at 52nd and Dodge. I have never been in it but have drove by the entrance many times

It is still here. It's cool, but has some real issues. And I mean "real issues".

It's a little narrow, and has a pole at the entrance / exit. These have the combined effect of forcing bikes to be walked. I'd hate to try to get a cargo bike or a bike with a trailer with the kids through there, if even possible.

The entrance and exit is steep. Pretty sure it would not meet ADA requirements for a wheelchair.

Its still a great addition to the area, and if we HAD to do more of these they aren't the worst. But it's still car infrastructure: It exists primarily to let as many cars through as possible unimpeded rather than to help any form of multimodalism. I'd prefer we work on building our streets better rather than trying to shoehorn all of the second class citizens (bikes, pedestrians, busses) into what ever is left over.

From an urban design standpoint, is it better to have a bunch of multimodal roads used for traversing long stretches of town, or one major arterial designed mainly for cars passing through and every other road devoted to local traffic and noncar traffic? I'd personally rather have cars zipping through on the main road than sitting through six light cycles on Farnam

Yes, I know ideally 75 percent of those drivers would be taking transit, but let's be realistic here. They could shut Dodge down at 72nd tomorrow to everyone but buses and the vast majority of people who live in West O would still drive their cars. I love transit and urban design too, but I'm not gonna blame somebody for not wanting to make their commute significantly more difficult just for wider sidewalks at Midtown Crossing. Some day soon, hopefully, but transit isn't where it needs to be yet to make that commute anything but a giant pain in the bum for everyone involved

[Brad]

The entrance and exit is steep. Pretty sure it would not meet ADA requirements for a wheelchair.

An ADA ramp can only rise 2.5' for every 30 feet in length and then it needs a flat landing before the next 30' segment can start. How deep do you think that tunnel is? If the bottom is 10 feet below grade, there would need to be a 136' long ramp at both ends, and its nowhere near that long.

The point in it's entirety was the issues with that tunnel. So I guess you confirmed it. I never ever tried to measure it, I just know when I take it I know it couldn't really be built today.

Same with the bridge over Dodge at Memorial Park.

I wonder when the last tunnel or overpass was built in Omaha? Its been quite a long time for sure?

Here is an ADA compliant one in Overton, Nebraska. Its basically a 50'x50' square on each end of the bridge. 30' long ramps and 10'x10' landings at the end of each ramp. They look even larger in person.

overton-ne.png

[GenX]

The entrance and exit is steep. Pretty sure it would not meet ADA requirements for a wheelchair.

An ADA ramp can only rise 2.5' for every 30 feet in length and then it needs a flat landing before the next 30' segment can start. How deep do you think that tunnel is? If the bottom is 10 feet below grade, there would need to be a 136' long ramp at both ends, and its nowhere near that long.

The point in it's entirety was the issues with that tunnel. So I guess you confirmed it. I never ever tried to measure it, I just know when I take it I know it couldn't really be built today.

Same with the bridge over Dodge at Memorial Park.

I wonder when the last tunnel or overpass was built in Omaha? Its been quite a long time for sure?

Here is an ADA compliant one in Overton, Nebraska. Its basically a 50'x50' square on each end of the bridge. 30' long ramps and 10'x10' landings at the end of each ramp. They look even larger in person.

overton-ne.png

I’d hate to wheel all the way to the top only to realize you forgot something in the car

[GenX]

I believe the soil is a major contributor to Omaha’s lack of tunnels.

[ProgKingHughesker]

I wonder when the last tunnel or overpass was built in Omaha? Its been quite a long time for sure?

Does the Creighton North Freeway bridge count?

[Louie]

I believe the soil is a major contributor to Omaha’s lack of tunnels.

Really? Just the composition of it?

[Brad]

I believe the soil is a major contributor to Omaha’s lack of tunnels.

Really? Just the composition of it?

Wrong, the soil is not a factor at all on pedestrian tunnels. The pedestrian tunnels are no different than the thousands of concrete box culverts we have all over this area...

[almighty_tuna]

Thanks for getting the dirt on the real story of the pedestrian tunnels, Brad ;)

[Dundeemaha]

There was a great article not too long ago in the OWH. It talks about the underpasses and overpasses in Omaha and how the ADA has basically made both infeasible to build: https://omaha.com/news/local/history/ov ... bb99f.html

Because federal money was used for 72nd and Blondo, its design triggered federal review and a new policy in 1979. The Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board said the 13% ramp grade was too steep, denying persons in wheelchairs safe and convenient access.

The Federal Highway Administration opposed that view. Its stance was the board was imposing a federal standard that applied to ramps in buildings only and not to overpasses.

The compromise was a maximum grade of 8.33% for overpasses and underpasses built with federal aid. Such a grade would require 200-foot ramps for a structure with 16-foot clearance over a road.

[BRoss]

I'm sure it's way more expensive, but why not use elevators?

[TitosBuritoBarn]

On top of ADA accessibility issues, people generally don't use overpasses or underpasses if it adds time to their journey. Underpass/overpass implementation guidelines are something we've been looking at at work lately. Generally people won't use them unless they provide an equal less time to getting across the street than it would take to cross the street at-grade level. People are lazy and will risk their lives to save time.

So a more viable solution to pedestrian safety would be to make the intersections safer and speeds less hazardous.

[Padre]

On top of ADA accessibility issues, people generally don't use overpasses or underpasses if it adds time to their journey. Underpass/overpass implementation guidelines are something we've been looking at at work lately. Generally people won't use them unless they provide an equal less time to getting across the street than it would take to cross the street at-grade level. People are lazy and will risk their lives to save time.

So a more viable solution to pedestrian safety would be to make the intersections safer and speeds less hazardous.

I can confirm this based on personal experience from when I was younger. My mom owned a shop on a college campus, and the student union was across a busy street. There was an enclosed walkway between the two, but rather than take the extra two or three minutes, I would dodge between cars to get between the two. I wouldn’t do it now, but I imagine others would.

[WBR_Tom]

I wonder when the last tunnel or overpass was built in Omaha? Its been quite a long time for sure?

Does the Creighton North Freeway bridge count?

I think the most recent one in the metro area was probably the overpass on Washington Street (84th) in Papillion; it was torn down in 2017 and re-built in 2018. The cost was $1.8 million six years ago, so anything built now would probably be a lot more. To your point about ADA compliance, it also takes up a lot more land than the old one.

https://omaha.com/news/local/papillion- ... 124f9.html

[Brad]

I wonder when the last tunnel or overpass was built in Omaha? Its been quite a long time for sure?

Does the Creighton North Freeway bridge count?

I think the most recent one in the metro area was probably the overpass on Washington Street (84th) in Papillion; it was torn down in 2017 and re-built in 2018. The cost was $1.8 million six years ago, so anything built now would probably be a lot more. To your point about ADA compliance, it also takes up a lot more land than the old one.

https://omaha.com/news/local/papillion- ... 124f9.html

I forgot about that one, and it is huge. Looks like the new rams are around 240' on each side. The old ramps were only about 140' on each side. Good thing the school district owned the land on both sides to fit it in.

Someone else brought up a good point earlier that people don't like to use these because of the extra distance it adds to the route. This one adds nearly 500' feet to a persons route.

[mrsticka]

What about the one on 108th and West Center near the I-680 interchange?

[Brad]

What about the one on 108th and West Center near the I-680 interchange?

Looking at old aerials, I think it was built some time between 1962 and 1973.

[GenX]

The one at 99th & Fort was rebuilt a few years ago.

[Busguy2010]

The one at 99th & Fort was rebuilt a few years ago.

Good call, that might be the most recent one.

[Renovator2559]

Washinton DC has several tunnels with interstate highways going through. They've been effective in cloaking unsafe speeds for pedestrians above, while allowing 50mph speed for cars below.

Besides the cost factor, what other cons are seen with tunnels used in this method?

[PotatoeEatsFish]

I mean they were floating the idea of covering 480 at one point. I think 3 pedestrian overpasses along Dodge St in this area would make a lot of change. The tunnel would be the best idea but the city will never spend that much. I would love to see this segment of Dodge made a tunnel along with 480 and making a massive park that's connected from Dodge to 480.

[Athomsfere]

I'm sure it's way more expensive, but why not use elevators?

They do sometimes in more civilized nations. Or split the elevation with elevated or partially buried infrastructure for some modes and the pedestrian path can go down or up less.

One of my favorites for some reason:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7273468 ... ?entry=ttu

Bike parking is level with the main sidewalks, and sits above the bus entrance.

Ramps or stairs can get you to the tunnel level which is below the train tracks which are slightly elevated.

It's great infrastructure for cars, busses, trains, pedestrians and bikes! This is what I want from our TOD and mixed use areas.

It also has everything you need near by. A 7-11, a Lawsons, apartments, houses a couple blocks away, shopping and dining. I saw the hotel changed names (never stayed there, but I always remember "ORION"), and luckily the eel restaurant is still close by.

[Renovator2559]

Wow, this is another great example, not only does it accomplish multiple modes, it makes everyone happy. While reducing noise pollution.

Outside of "traffic" flow, I still don't understand why Dodge splits into two one way streets, Douglas and Dodge. Couldn't Dodge Street as a 2-way street suffice?