Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[almighty_tuna]

Given McDonnell's foolhardy approach to the streetcar I don't see how he would be in any way a positive force for continued growth and development in downtown/midtown.

[nebport5]

Given McDonnell's foolhardy approach to the streetcar I don't see how he would be in any way a positive force for continued growth and development in downtown/midtown.

He says he wants to “look into” Waymo, which would be more expensive than Uber/Lyft(which are already arguably not affordable), would take away jobs from contract drivers and put more traffic on the road.

At his “best” he’s an anti-choice with no real ideas to move the city forward.

[Jins123]

Wow, McDonell is hellbent on getting the streetcar cancelled. Stothert just released a statement saying that it will be much more costly to taxpayers to cancel the streetcar and that developers will probably sue the city.

Is there any chance that if elected McDonnell will be able to cancel it?

I know for most liberal leaning people Stothert isn't their ideal mayor, but they would be wise to vote for her this election.

Check Omaha Reddit, a place that gets flack on here for the liberal leanings, we’re all for Jean over him. Not even exaggerating.

[skinzfan23]

Given McDonnell's foolhardy approach to the streetcar I don't see how he would be in any way a positive force for continued growth and development in downtown/midtown.

He says he wants to “look into” Waymo, which would be more expensive than Uber/Lyft(which are already arguably not affordable), would take away jobs from contract drivers and put more traffic on the road.

At his “best” he’s an anti-choice with no real ideas to move the city forward.

Thats the problem with people like him, no real platform other than 'talking" about change. He has no plans to actually do anything.

[skinzfan23]

Check Omaha Reddit, a place that gets flack on here for the liberal leanings, we’re all for Jean over him. Not even exaggerating.

Thats good to hear for Stothert and continued success in the Omaha growth/development.

[Garrett]

Jasmine Harris has now seemed to acknowledge that cancelling the streetcar would be fiscally irresponsible, but continues to call for more light rail development and a regional line to Lincoln.

[skip]

Jasmine Harris has now seemed to acknowledge that cancelling the streetcar would be fiscally irresponsible, but continues to call for more light rail development and a regional line to Lincoln.

music to my ears

[Dusty]

Jasmine Harris has now seemed to acknowledge that cancelling the streetcar would be fiscally irresponsible, but continues to call for more light rail development and a regional line to Lincoln.

You just have spin it to their liking. Streetcar today, light rail hybrid in the future. If the city decides to create a protected barrier from cars, it becomes a hybrid of streetcar and light rail. If capacity exceeds expectations, we can upgrade the rolling stock to light rail trains and push the existing trains to run on an extension line that has less capacity.

[halgy]

Jasmine Harris has now seemed to acknowledge that cancelling the streetcar would be fiscally irresponsible, but continues to call for more light rail development and a regional line to Lincoln.

You just have spin it to their liking. Streetcar today, light rail hybrid in the future. If the city decides to create a protected barrier from cars, it becomes a hybrid of streetcar and light rail. If capacity exceeds expectations, we can upgrade the rolling stock to light rail trains and push the existing trains to run on an extension line that has less capacity.

Is this really the difference between a streetcar and light rail? If we did start doing light rail, plan would be to just run along the existing roads, but with a protected lane? I'm 100% for better transit, but I've always wondered how it would actually work to introduce more intensive rail into a city like Omaha.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

Jasmine Harris has now seemed to acknowledge that cancelling the streetcar would be fiscally irresponsible, but continues to call for more light rail development and a regional line to Lincoln.

You just have spin it to their liking. Streetcar today, light rail hybrid in the future. If the city decides to create a protected barrier from cars, it becomes a hybrid of streetcar and light rail. If capacity exceeds expectations, we can upgrade the rolling stock to light rail trains and push the existing trains to run on an extension line that has less capacity.

Is this really the difference between a streetcar and light rail? If we did start doing light rail, plan would be to just run along the existing roads, but with a protected lane? I'm 100% for better transit, but I've always wondered how it would actually work to introduce more intensive rail into a city like Omaha.

A streetcar is a form of light rail. I'm guessing that in this context, Harris is thinking of "light rail" as off-street trains with dedicated ROW.

I think introducing more intensive transit would work pretty well in Omaha. I don't think that there is as big of a fear of crime or density in the core of Omaha as you find in many other cities. Fear of those two things can be big hinderances to a light rail's success.

[almighty_tuna]

Is this really the difference between a streetcar and light rail? If we did start doing light rail, plan would be to just run along the existing roads, but with a protected lane?

No. A tenant of light rail/commuter rail is that it operates in its own right-of-way and is more like a freight train in terms of weight, speed, required infrastructure, etc. Streetcars can and do operate in their own right-of-way in many places, but they still interact with traffic with at-grade crossings at nearly every street, slower speeds, etc.

Light rail could run alongside an existing road in much the same way that the railroad runs alongside I80 or Industrial between 144th & West Center. But you will not find "light rail" zipping along at 55mph in its own lane along NW Radial or 24th Street. Light rail as a wider transportation solution is every bit as intensive as forging a new rail line through a city.

[Garrett]

Is this really the difference between a streetcar and light rail? If we did start doing light rail, plan would be to just run along the existing roads, but with a protected lane?

No. A tenant of light rail/commuter rail is that it operates in its own right-of-way and is more like a freight train in terms of weight, speed, required infrastructure, etc. Streetcars can and do operate in their own right-of-way in many places, but they still interact with traffic with at-grade crossings at nearly every street, slower speeds, etc.

Light rail could run alongside an existing road in much the same way that the railroad runs alongside I80 or Industrial between 144th & West Center. But you will not find "light rail" zipping along at 55mph in its own lane along NW Radial or 24th Street. Light rail as a wider transportation solution is every bit as intensive as forging a new rail line through a city.

You’re mostly right, but commuter rail (or regional rail) tends to be a different family of train than light rail, IE heavy rail, that uses bigger trains on more traditional tracks with fully separated rights of way. Power sources can be either diesel engines or an electrified third rail. A train to Lincoln would be a regional rail.

Light rail is just a broad family of, well, lighter forms of rail ranging from in traffic running trains like we’ll see in the streetcar, to trains running in roadways but separated lanes like in TRAX Salt Lake City, to fully grade separated lines like is common in Denver’s RTD. Note how Salt Lake’s S line streetcar uses the same rolling stock as the TRAX light rail.

Eric Miller does a more in depth exploration of the distinctions in this Grow Omaha article

https://growomaha.com/different-types-o ... for-omaha/

[OmahaJaysCU]

So, aside from how dumb canceling the project already being constructed would be, wouldn’t the city be in violation of several legally binding development agreements? I would think every developer and bank with a TIF note would line up to sue the city. I’m not a legal expert but anyone else have insight here?

[skinzfan23]

Yes, I think that is exactly what Stothert has mentioned. The developers that were promised that the streetcar was being built will sue the city if it doesn’t happen.

This is where a person that is running shouldn’t be a politician. They don’t have any idea how it all works and haven’t done any research.

[Garrett]

McDonnell is running solely out of loathing for Stothert and nothing else.

[Nebraska>Iowa]

Yes, I think that is exactly what Stothert has mentioned. The developers that were promised that the streetcar was being built will sue the city if it doesn’t happen.

This is where a person that is running shouldn’t be a politician. They don’t have any idea how it all works and haven’t done any research.

He doesn't understand business. Nuff said.

[Dusty]

A streetcar is a form of light rail. I'm guessing that in this context, Harris is thinking of "light rail" as off-street trains with dedicated ROW.

I think introducing more intensive transit would work pretty well in Omaha. I don't think that there is as big of a fear of crime or density in the core of Omaha as you find in many other cities. Fear of those two things can be big hinderances to a light rail's success.

I think it comes down to perception of modes. People who oppose the streetcar look at them as tourist circulators. They don't view them as real transportation. Of course, design can make a huge difference. I can agree with them to certain extent. The streetcars that only serve to connect districts in a loop or closed circuit perform with very low ridership (Atlanta, Milwaukee, OKC, etc.). I brought this up earlier in the thread. The streetcars with more linear lines perform better. That's because it works a direction like a light rail would be planned.

Even if you added protected lanes on Farnam/Harney, it's still a streetcar. The line is too short to be light rail, but we can take design elements from it to blur the lines between modes. In the end, we get a really efficient streetcar to hop districts and work a direction at the same time.

[Athomsfere]

Even if you added protected lanes on Farnam/Harney, it's still a streetcar. The line is too short to be light rail, but we can take design elements from it to blur the lines between modes. In the end, we get a really efficient streetcar to hop districts and work a direction at the same time.

But it is light rail. Or a form of light rail.

And again: Streetcars are what make Amsterdam move. Even in mixed traffic.

Really I think the key take aways are:

Those who think a streetcar won't / can't work are wrong. Those that think the streetcar will solve all our problems are wrong. There is no silver bullet here, short of maybe throwing a bon fire for 90% of the cars...

We just need to be deliberate in our planning and incremental in adding transit and housing options.

[Dusty]

Even if you added protected lanes on Farnam/Harney, it's still a streetcar. The line is too short to be light rail, but we can take design elements from it to blur the lines between modes. In the end, we get a really efficient streetcar to hop districts and work a direction at the same time.

But it is light rail. Or a form of light rail.

And again: Streetcars are what make Amsterdam move. Even in mixed traffic.

Really I think the key take aways are:

Those who think a streetcar won't / can't work are wrong. Those that think the streetcar will solve all our problems are wrong. There is no silver bullet here, short of maybe throwing a bon fire for 90% of the cars...

We just need to be deliberate in our planning and incremental in adding transit and housing options.

Yes, all part of the light rail group. I think European cities are different because they don't have the car volume the US has.
Much easier to share the lane with a streetcar. Meanwhile in the US, we have parking garages on every corner.
When a concert lets out, they come out of the garage at the same time the streetcar will be passing. Or US Cities putting the streetcar down a street congested with cars (peak times) with no plan to divert them a different way or strengthen transit options leading into that area.

I agree with you that the streetcar will be a bigger success than what they are expecting. The problem is the city does not have a long term plan beyond this. This is why I came out with my own vision and action plan to follow. I would rather try and influence and push them verses sitting on the sidelines feeling disappointed.

[Athomsfere]

I think European cities are different because they don't have the car volume the US has.

Amsterdam in the 60s:


They don't have the car problem anymore.

London, Paris, the Netherlands... They all saw what the US was doing in the 50's, 60's and 70's and tried to follow that trend. Rotterdam is a good study as it, like much of Germany was rebuilt post WW2 to follow the North American example, before they realized it was a disaster waiting to happen.

So I agree cars are a problem, but not exactly as unique as we often think they are. And certainly solvable with continuous upgrades to transit and infrastructure that prefer multi-modal options.

The hardest part of any of this is changing minds. People, as the joke goes, will visit Paris or Disney World and wonder why we can't have that experience in American cities. We can, if people could learn to accept not parking within 30 meters of the front door of every business.

What really baffles me, as a small tangent is that someone in a rush will circle a parking lot multiple times to walk a slightly shorter distance to Wal Mart. Losing time overall to save walking time.

Or hunt for that super close spot, when they know they will be walking an order of magnitude more once inside.

[Dusty]

The hardest part of any of this is changing minds. People, as the joke goes, will visit Paris or Disney World and wonder why we can't have that experience in American cities. We can, if people could learn to accept not parking within 30 meters of the front door of every business.

We are close enough to Orlando, we make occasional trips on the weekend to resort hop. We park at Disney Springs in the parking garage (free) and take transit to the resorts. Bus ride to one, ferry to next, monorail to next, back to bus, etc.. It's easy and convenient. I see the streetcar as the same mindset to mobility. Hopping districts or activities by using transit for short moves.

Once people get used to the streetcar, they will ask for more. What bus lines can we strengthen to expand my reach of destinations? As the network improves, people will become less dependent on cars and ride transit more often. The streetcar is a good first start to create excitement for change.

[Athomsfere]

The hardest part of any of this is changing minds. People, as the joke goes, will visit Paris or Disney World and wonder why we can't have that experience in American cities. We can, if people could learn to accept not parking within 30 meters of the front door of every business.

We are close enough to Orlando, we make occasional trips on the weekend to resort hop. We park at Disney Springs in the parking garage (free) and take transit to the resorts. Bus ride to one, ferry to next, monorail to next, back to bus, etc.. It's easy and convenient. I see the streetcar as the same mindset to mobility. Hopping districts or activities by using transit for short moves.

Once people get used to the streetcar, they will ask for more. What bus lines can we strengthen to expand my reach of destinations? As the network improves, people will become less dependent on cars and ride transit more often. The streetcar is a good first start to create excitement for change.

From a North American mindset I think next would be accelerate the ORBT expansion to north and South O, along with CBs streetcar expansion. Get those average daily rider numbers up because we plan backwards with "we need X before we add transit".

[Mapguy]

If you are wanting to up ridership on the streetcar the lowest hanging fruit is UNMC/Aksarben/UNO

College campuses can supercharge ridership numbers if they take students to where they want to go or allow them to park further away from their final destination.

[halgy]

If you are wanting to up ridership on the streetcar the lowest hanging fruit is UNMC/Aksarben/UNO

College campuses can supercharge ridership numbers if they take students to where they want to go or allow them to park further away from their final destination.

I would think that connecting those places to the network will make additional development along the route even more enticing. Adding 15,000 students (plus staff and faculty) is a lot of additional semi-captive demand.

In addition to the other recent suggestions, adding high-quality connections to the zoo and airport would really round out the offering. Maybe not rail connection (at least not right away), but something with higher frequency and better amenities would be great. Either somehow make the routes free like the streetcar, or METRO should start offering a 3-day all you can ride bus pass for visitors.

[Louie]

If you are wanting to up ridership on the streetcar the lowest hanging fruit is UNMC/Aksarben/UNO

College campuses can supercharge ridership numbers if they take students to where they want to go or allow them to park further away from their final destination.

Just getting to aksarben would do the trick as UNO runs a bunch of shuttles between north and south campus.

[Garrett]

Just a reminder that an Aksarben extension has been considered under HDR's February 2023 study, with routing down to Leavenworth via Saddle Creek or 42nd street, over to 60th street, down to Woolworth, and finally to 63rd street. This pretty identically follows an old streetcar line and the streets have residual extra width to be able to handle a line like this.

[Dusty]

Garrett,
You might as well throw away that map. At the pace Metro Transit plans all those studies will be expired and outdated.
They will be in charge of any rail expansions going forward. in my opinion, Metro is a hot mess. They can't even manage their poorly planned bus network.

[Linkin5]

Garrett,
You might as well throw away that map. At the pace Metro Transit plans all those studies will be expired and outdated.
They will be in charge of any rail expansions going forward. in my opinion, Metro is a hot mess. They can't even manage their poorly planned bus network.

Are future extensions planning on using federal funds? Can’t imagine that will even be an option these next four years.

[F0R_L1F3]

Garrett,
You might as well throw away that map. At the pace Metro Transit plans all those studies will be expired and outdated.
They will be in charge of any rail expansions going forward. in my opinion, Metro is a hot mess. They can't even manage their poorly planned bus network.

Agreed. These next four years will really prove how unsustainable the agency is and shine more light on the issues of Omaha's transportation system. The city is going good and moving forward with it's new developments but for it to continue to be a backbone and to improve issues with it such as connectivity, dependency on federal funds is going to run it to the ground. StarTran in Lincoln cut all school booster routes because of it, it's taken attention away and continues to have a negative light shined on it as a result.

[Dusty]

Garrett,
You might as well throw away that map. At the pace Metro Transit plans all those studies will be expired and outdated.
They will be in charge of any rail expansions going forward. in my opinion, Metro is a hot mess. They can't even manage their poorly planned bus network.

Are future extensions planning on using federal funds? Can’t imagine that will even be an option these next four years.

We have plenty of time. We need to build the starter line first. There is a feasibility study awarded for a North Omaha extension through Creighton University. We will have to see how that goes. In the meantime, we can be supportive of Council Bluffs getting a line down 1st Ave. That will help build momentum for any extension lines in Omaha.

[Athomsfere]

Garrett,
You might as well throw away that map. At the pace Metro Transit plans all those studies will be expired and outdated.
They will be in charge of any rail expansions going forward. in my opinion, Metro is a hot mess. They can't even manage their poorly planned bus network.

Are future extensions planning on using federal funds? Can’t imagine that will even be an option these next four years.

We have plenty of time. We need to build the starter line first. There is a feasibility study awarded for a North Omaha extension through Creighton University. We will have to see how that goes. In the meantime, we can be supportive of Council Bluffs getting a line down 1st Ave. That will help build momentum for any extension lines in Omaha.

Let us hope it just moves faster if it is found to be good enough than the 20+ years on the original line.

[omahahawk]

OWH ran a story yesterday about what the exact costs of stopping the streetcar would be. I was unable to access on the library site. Anybody read this article and able to briefly summarize? Also, it would be nice if there were other news outlets that would actually report on what the real costs and repercussions of stopping this project would be. Just drove up Farnam from the riverfront yesterday and with every pace of machinery, barricade, ripped up street section, and missing bridge I saw all I could think of is stopping this project seriously cannot be allowed.

[Brad]

OWH ran a story yesterday about what the exact costs of stopping the streetcar would be. I was unable to access on the library site. Anybody read this article and able to briefly summarize? Also, it would be nice if there were other news outlets that would actually report on what the real costs and repercussions of stopping this project would be. Just drove up Farnam from the riverfront yesterday and with every pace of machinery, barricade, ripped up street section, and missing bridge I saw all I could think of is stopping this project seriously cannot be allowed.

That is not an OWH story, they re-ran the Flatwater story from the other day. I though someone already posted it, but its actually over in the mayoral election thread. Here is the same story in the FFP: https://flatwaterfreepress.org/omaha-ma ... d-it-cost/

Two stories side by side:

Screenshot 2025-03-30 113831.jpg

[skinzfan23]

I can’t believe that they reused a story from another source. Absolutely pathetic journalism from OWH.

Now I saw that KETV is also doing a story on this….prob gunna use FFP’s story as well.

[Dundeemaha]

Many of the Flatwater Free Press stories appear in the OWH and have since its inception basically. The OWH pays the FFP for the syndication

[stadsborgare]

Harney Street bridge under construction


I've been speculating to myself where would be the first set of tracks to be laid down, and then it hit me - maybe the Harney Street bridge, when completed by December of this year?

[nebugeater]

Harney Street bridge under construction


I've been speculating to myself where would be the first set of tracks to be laid down, and then it hit me - maybe the Harney Street bridge, when completed by December of this year?

Caefull, there using logic.

[Brad]

Harney Street bridge under construction


I've been speculating to myself where would be the first set of tracks to be laid down, and then it hit me - maybe the Harney Street bridge, when completed by December of this year?

The west side is way further along. Not sure if they poured concrete yet, but it was at least framed up over a week ago.

[stadsborgare]

Harney Street bridge under construction


I've been speculating to myself where would be the first set of tracks to be laid down, and then it hit me - maybe the Harney Street bridge, when completed by December of this year?

The west side is way further along. Not sure if they poured concrete yet, but it was at least framed up over a week ago.

Here's the west side.

[MadJack]

Harney Street bridge under construction


I've been speculating to myself where would be the first set of tracks to be laid down, and then it hit me - maybe the Harney Street bridge, when completed by December of this year?

Good point...Make sense to me!