Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[Dusty]

I would say 6 years realistically for expansion. Optimistically 5 years as Garrett stated.

2 year environmental/feasibility study
1 year political kickback
1 year design study
2 years of construction

It may not take 2 years to build. It really depends on the path and length. If it becomes a small extension off the starter line or separate expansion line. On the small end, they could extend down 10th Northbound to Millwork Commons and stop. Or they could build a 10th St expansion line that sets the stage for connection to zoo and Little Bohemia/Little Italy area. A lot of variables, but it's important to get the first phase of studies done now. This way you are building momentum as soon as the starter line opens.

[Mapguy]

I agree I think you do 2 short extensions. An extension north to CHI and Millwork on 10th (2 stops). And a West extension to go through UNMC campus (2 stops, possibly 3 to connect to Leavenworth) These short extensions would be the ideal Main line.

[Louie]

I agree I think you do 2 short extensions. An extension north to CHI and Millwork on 10th (2 stops). And a West extension to go through UNMC campus (2 stops, possibly 3 to connect to Leavenworth) These short extensions would be the ideal Main line.

Would you consider south on 13th a possibility? Like terminating in Little Bo.

[Garrett]

I agree I think you do 2 short extensions. An extension north to CHI and Millwork on 10th (2 stops). And a West extension to go through UNMC campus (2 stops, possibly 3 to connect to Leavenworth) These short extensions would be the ideal Main line.

Would you consider south on 13th a possibility? Like terminating in Little Bo.

At that point you'd probably need an expanded depot, and to create two lines, but it's definitely a good expansion option.

[Dusty]

I agree I think you do 2 short extensions. An extension north to CHI and Millwork on 10th (2 stops). And a West extension to go through UNMC campus (2 stops, possibly 3 to connect to Leavenworth) These short extensions would be the ideal Main line.

Would you consider south on 13th a possibility? Like terminating in Little Bo.

If you have a line on 13th terminate at Little Bohemia, people will be in an uproar why you didn't go to the zoo.

1. I do believe there is an active study going on to see how to extend the streetcar north.

4. Eric Miller's Grow Omaha article about the maintenance facility indicates that it's only being built to house the initial order of 6 vehicles, but it can be expanded if necessary or they could build an additional facility elsewhere (linked below for reference)

Adding on to Garrett's comments.
The North Omaha study is technically a TOD study through Creighton. I think a 19th/20th line is low priority right now. What span of area are they measuring? Stothert made a comment that going down Abbott Drive to airport was part of it. if that is the case, Millwork Commons would be included in the area being studied.

In the current state, the maintenance facility will be dual purpose: Maintenance and overnight parking. If you add any additional rail cars, you will need to build a storage garage for overnight parking. They call this a carbarn. The maintenance facility will be able to service a lot more if that is the single purpose of the building. When Council Bluffs was in talks, they were planning access to the maintenance facility but having overnight parking somewhere else. This comes back to what I was saying about extensions/expansion. If a small extension forces you add a railcar/carbarn, then plan for an expansion line. Plus, adding too much to a starter line can be an operational headache.

[Busguy2010]

I made a comment the other day I forgot to submit -

Basically Im regretful 19th got the study instead of somewhere else. Creighton is about the only reason, and north of that is just blight. And I get North Omaha is "disadvantaged", but they're really not in the transportation department. They have the most extensive service coverage of all of the metro, and do they even want a streetcar. Doubt it, highly. So it just screams gentrification machine.

I think 10th from Millwork to the Zoo would have a way better use of that study. I also like how 10th doesnt currently have a bus route to interfere with either, whereas 19th, they have the 18, the busiest frackin route in the system.

[Garrett]

The tracks Omaha paved over: How the 20th-century streetcar shaped a growing city

A nice little story in the Flatwater Free Press about the historic Omaha streetcars and their connection to the modern one

[Erik]

The tracks Omaha paved over: How the 20th-century streetcar shaped a growing city

A nice little story in the Flatwater Free Press about the historic Omaha streetcars and their connection to the modern one

Omaha had the most extensive network outside of Boston.

Now im depressed

[Busguy2010]

The tracks Omaha paved over: How the 20th-century streetcar shaped a growing city

A nice little story in the Flatwater Free Press about the historic Omaha streetcars and their connection to the modern one

Omaha had the most extensive network outside of Boston.

Now im depressed

Its pretty awful. And to think it was also celebrated. By the city that was built by the streetcar...

[riceweb]

People forget that personal vehicles were a godsend back in the day. Buses and streetcars were slow, crowded, had no air conditioning, etc.

My grandmother used to tell me how awful it was taking two separate buses PLUS extensive walking for her first jobs growing up in Cleveland. She truly hated it.

So of course people celebrated personal vehicles. It was a genuine luxury. We shouldn't lose sight of that. We should aim for mass transit to out-compete personal vehicles, otherwise they'll be minimally used.

[Busguy2010]

^ True, I hear they were a pretty uncomfortable ride. And they went out of business simply because they got out competeted by automobiles, and that's why nobody was riding them. Have to remember they were a for profit company. But its still sad. Too bad they couldn't take the advances we have today and plop them into 1920's Omaha. Maybe we'd still have the system.

[Habits76]

Interesting perspective on the downfall of streetcars across the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_M ... conspiracy

[riceweb]

ok, sure, but look at the pictures of these streetcars. I'm sure most of us have seen the really dolled up streetcars at transit museums, but the reality is that most of these were operated by very small companies that are more akin to the size of a small taxi company today, and the streetcars themselves were a mix or motorized or horse-drawn in many cases, and they were often open-air and terrible in winter or closed and too hot in the summer.

There's a ton to this story, but it's naive at best to assume it was all just GM's fault.

The ways that transit can win in the US today:

#1: Be there mostly for aesthetic reasons and niche use case - I personally think a streetcar is charming and I think they'd be a fun thing to add back for nostalgia's sake and also just to be our "thing" that we do as a town

#2: Be grade-separated, comfortable, clean, well-policed, and fast, with low headway/high frequency running at all hours of the day, covering a wide swath of the city, hitting key areas like the airport and top tourist attractions as well as major employers

Both can exist in the same town for different reasons. Our streetcar will mostly be a toy, but that's fine, because it's just like parks or greenspace: they're part of our urban fabric and contribute to making our town pleasant. But at the same time, I think we should really think about #2 above and make a more serious push into transit at some point. Gonna be hard to find the "secret sauce" in a town with Omaha's size and sprawl, but I think still doable with the right system design.

[Garrett]

Interesting perspective on the downfall of streetcars across the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_M ... conspiracy

Well this is a tantalizing conspiracy, it doesn't really hold a lot of water when you dig down into it. Streetcar systems were built by private companies as a development tool, but once they served their purpose of building new neighborhoods, the developers weren't super interested in upkeep or maintaining quality service. And yes, they were indeed uncomfortable and reaching the end of their usable life by the time GM and other companies came around and bought them out. Buses, at the time, were seen as the new hot piece of tech, were air conditioned, and were generally far more comfortable for your average rider.

ok, sure, but look at the pictures of these streetcars. I'm sure most of us have seen the really dolled up streetcars at transit museums, but the reality is that most of these were operated by very small companies that are more akin to the size of a small taxi company today, and the streetcars themselves were a mix or motorized or horse-drawn in many cases, and they were often open-air and terrible in winter or closed and too hot in the summer.

There's a ton to this story, but it's naive at best to assume it was all just GM's fault.

The ways that transit can win in the US today:

#1: Be there mostly for aesthetic reasons and niche use case - I personally think a streetcar is charming and I think they'd be a fun thing to add back for nostalgia's sake and also just to be our "thing" that we do as a town

#2: Be grade-separated, comfortable, clean, well-policed, and fast, with low headway/high frequency running at all hours of the day, covering a wide swath of the city, hitting key areas like the airport and top tourist attractions as well as major employers

Both can exist in the same town for different reasons. Our streetcar will mostly be a toy, but that's fine, because it's just like parks or greenspace: they're part of our urban fabric and contribute to making our town pleasant. But at the same time, I think we should really think about #2 above and make a more serious push into transit at some point. Gonna be hard to find the "secret sauce" in a town with Omaha's size and sprawl, but I think still doable with the right system design.

And this I think is a big crux on selling the modern streetcar: it's leagues and leagues better than the tech of old. People like to complain that it's "100 year old technology" but so is the car! The first electric streetcar started running in 1881, and the first car was in 1885. No one would take you seriously if you held up the Model T as a standard car of today. Just as cars have advanced over the last 140 years, so has rail technology.

Every form of transportation, be it a highway interchange or a subway, is a development tool. All of the development happening along the interstate in Gretna wouldn't be happening if there were no exits. The new Gretna Landing development is quite literally dependent on a new exit being built at 192nd St. Our investments in infrastructure and the things we surround the infrastructure with are all choices and policy, not inevitabilities.

So yes! I 100% agree with you that the streetcar should be taken seriously as a transportation option, with better grade separation that provides a comfortable, fast, reliable service, and I hope that the city does more to give it priority over traffic than it already has. I'm encouraged by the proposed schedule they've laid out (service until 2 AM on Friday and Saturday is spectacular) and I hope that there continues to be the political will to expand further, despite hiccups.

[skinzfan23]

And this I think is a big crux on selling the modern streetcar: it's leagues and leagues better than the tech of old. People like to complain that it's "100 year old technology" but so is the car! The first electric streetcar started running in 1881, and the first car was in 1885. No one would take you seriously if you held up the Model T as a standard car of today. Just as cars have advanced over the last 140 years, so has rail technology.

Every form of transportation, be it a highway interchange or a subway, is a development tool. All of the development happening along the interstate in Gretna wouldn't be happening if there were no exits. The new Gretna Landing development is quite literally dependent on a new exit being built at 192nd St. Our investments in infrastructure and the things we surround the infrastructure with are all choices and policy, not inevitabilities.

So yes! I 100% agree with you that the streetcar should be taken seriously as a transportation option, with better grade separation that provides a comfortable, fast, reliable service, and I hope that the city does more to give it priority over traffic than it already has. I'm encouraged by the proposed schedule they've laid out (service until 2 AM on Friday and Saturday is spectacular) and I hope that there continues to be the political will to expand further, despite hiccups.

I really like your take on this....that is a good way to describe it to naysayers.

[riceweb]

So yes! I 100% agree with you that the streetcar should be taken seriously as a transportation option, with better grade separation that provides a comfortable, fast, reliable service, and I hope that the city does more to give it priority over traffic than it already has. I'm encouraged by the proposed schedule they've laid out (service until 2 AM on Friday and Saturday is spectacular) and I hope that there continues to be the political will to expand further, despite hiccups.

I would have liked our streetcar to operate exclusively down Farnam, potentially, for this exact purpose: Farnam becomes a greenway/trackway/bikeway only, Harney becomes two-way traffic, and all light signals are designed to ensure the streetcar is rarely waiting (though obviously it *will* wait because people will still block the thing while driving north/south or even just parking on the tracks... it's wild but it happens).

In short, use more of a European model for the streetcar (though obviously Europe has all types of streetcars with varying separation from traffic).

But there should be another light-rail piece that's focused on moving really large numbers of people efficiently and very quickly. Something that would make a West O family consider not getting a car for their kids because there's a great train option available (and obviously, it can't serve everywhere out in the 'burbs, but a well-designed system along the "fish spine" could genuinely offer an alternative).

And yes, it is very encouraging that they plan to run this until 2am. What has killed BRT and streetcars in other cities is infrequently running buses/trains.

[Garrett]

So yes! I 100% agree with you that the streetcar should be taken seriously as a transportation option, with better grade separation that provides a comfortable, fast, reliable service, and I hope that the city does more to give it priority over traffic than it already has. I'm encouraged by the proposed schedule they've laid out (service until 2 AM on Friday and Saturday is spectacular) and I hope that there continues to be the political will to expand further, despite hiccups.

I would have liked our streetcar to operate exclusively down Farnam, potentially, for this exact purpose: Farnam becomes a greenway/trackway/bikeway only, Harney becomes two-way traffic, and all light signals are designed to ensure the streetcar is rarely waiting (though obviously it *will* wait because people will still block the thing while driving north/south or even just parking on the tracks... it's wild but it happens).

In short, use more of a European model for the streetcar (though obviously Europe has all types of streetcars with varying separation from traffic).

But there should be another light-rail piece that's focused on moving really large numbers of people efficiently and very quickly. Something that would make a West O family consider not getting a car for their kids because there's a great train option available (and obviously, it can't serve everywhere out in the 'burbs, but a well-designed system along the "fish spine" could genuinely offer an alternative).

And yes, it is very encouraging that they plan to run this until 2am. What has killed BRT and streetcars in other cities is infrequently running buses/trains.

I'd encourage you to look into the work going on with the new city master plan! The future lab experience has a scenario that closely mirrors your light rail vision

https://wemake.omaha.gov/futurelab/

[Louie]

So yes! I 100% agree with you that the streetcar should be taken seriously as a transportation option, with better grade separation that provides a comfortable, fast, reliable service, and I hope that the city does more to give it priority over traffic than it already has. I'm encouraged by the proposed schedule they've laid out (service until 2 AM on Friday and Saturday is spectacular) and I hope that there continues to be the political will to expand further, despite hiccups.

I would have liked our streetcar to operate exclusively down Farnam, potentially, for this exact purpose: Farnam becomes a greenway/trackway/bikeway only, Harney becomes two-way traffic, and all light signals are designed to ensure the streetcar is rarely waiting (though obviously it *will* wait because people will still block the thing while driving north/south or even just parking on the tracks... it's wild but it happens).

In short, use more of a European model for the streetcar (though obviously Europe has all types of streetcars with varying separation from traffic).

But there should be another light-rail piece that's focused on moving really large numbers of people efficiently and very quickly. Something that would make a West O family consider not getting a car for their kids because there's a great train option available (and obviously, it can't serve everywhere out in the 'burbs, but a well-designed system along the "fish spine" could genuinely offer an alternative).

And yes, it is very encouraging that they plan to run this until 2am. What has killed BRT and streetcars in other cities is infrequently running buses/trains.

I'd encourage you to look into the work going on with the new city master plan! The future lab experience has a scenario that closely mirrors your light rail vision

https://wemake.omaha.gov/futurelab/

I just watched all 4 scenario videos and my god if we go down the route of scenario A, it will be a sad day.

[riceweb]

I like their little suburban model near the end. Reminds me of a little Flemish suburb. Still dense, still transit-oriented, human scale development.

[Garrett]

I like their little suburban model near the end. Reminds me of a little Flemish suburb. Still dense, still transit-oriented, human scale development.

Yeah I like their alternate examples of what suburban development could look like. Good urban design and multiple transportation options can be available everywhere in the city

[jjjjhskr]

https://flatwaterfreepress.org/omaha-on ... rimspwouoe,

Really good article in Flatwater Freepress about the streetcar

[WorldStreet]

https://flatwaterfreepress.org/omaha-on ... rimspwouoe,

Really good article in Flatwater Freepress about the streetcar

Thanks for sharing. It was interesting to see the mindset during the time when the old streetcars were shutdown. It was also interesting to read the one in-depth comment of someone who opposes the new streetcar. In one of his points, he mentions that people with cars will want to keep the convenience of their cars instead of using public transportation with strangers. Currently in Shanghai, where public transportation options are endless, with facilities that are clean and well-maintained, there is also a stark cultural contrast in how people view each other and public facilities. Whatever one's view of China is, it can't be denied that the sense of safety in Shanghai and lack of graffiti is probably an important reason (along with population density) of why public transportation has a positive public sentiment. While I plan to use the streetcar regular during the months I'm in Omaha, I will be interested to see how well the streetcar is maintained.

[jjjjhskr]

I live in the old market. Almost everyone in the building has gotten rid of their cars and walk or bike most places. Sometimes orbt or the bus or Uber/lyft. It seems to be a growing movement. It would be interesting to know if bus ridership has increased due to high gas prices.

[Brad]

I live in the old market. Almost everyone in the building has gotten rid of their cars and walk or bike most places. Sometimes orbt or the bus or Uber/lyft. It seems to be a growing movement. It would be interesting to know if bus ridership has increased due to high gas prices.

Curious what people in your building are doing for groceries?

[TheSeventhBrat]

^ True, I hear they were a pretty uncomfortable ride. And they went out of business simply because they got out competeted by automobiles, and that's why nobody was riding them. Have to remember they were a for profit company. But its still sad. Too bad they couldn't take the advances we have today and plop them into 1920's Omaha. Maybe we'd still have the system.

When my mom first moved to Omaha in 1946, she worked as an operator for Ma Bell and lived in the Carriage House at the Millard/Brandeis mansion on 38th and Dewey. She rode the streetcar back and forth. She was glad to have met my dad, who had a car and started to take her to and from work. She was not a fan.

[locoluke]

Having ridden streetcar lines using heritage rolling stock (New Orleans and McKinney Ave in Dallas), I can confirm that they are not very comfortable.

[stadsborgare]

I am a fan of not having to look for parking downtown during a big event.

[skip]

I live in the old market. Almost everyone in the building has gotten rid of their cars and walk or bike most places. Sometimes orbt or the bus or Uber/lyft. It seems to be a growing movement. It would be interesting to know if bus ridership has increased due to high gas prices.

Curious what people in your building are doing for groceries?

lot of people who live downtown or midtown take route 11 to bakers

[Busguy2010]

I live in the old market. Almost everyone in the building has gotten rid of their cars and walk or bike most places. Sometimes orbt or the bus or Uber/lyft. It seems to be a growing movement. It would be interesting to know if bus ridership has increased due to high gas prices.

Curious what people in your building are doing for groceries?

lot of people who live downtown or midtown take route 11 to bakers

That and Supermercado Nuestra Familia (Family Fare) on 29th, 15 to Hy-vee on Center, 36 to Nuestra Familia on Vinton, Blue or Yellow to Hy-vee on Broadway. Sure it would be nice to have a place to walk to, but the grocery options arent THAT far by bus. Doubt the streetcar will do much to usher new grocery shoppers to Downtown if it spurs such a place, unless its a destination like Whole Foods.

[Zephyr]

This is a bit of short notice, although I want to extend this invitation to forum members as I am not getting much "traction" on this event. I am planning a "soft launch" of a streetcar walking tour for Saturday, June 6. The tour will be in two parts: starting at 10th & Capitol at 9 AM and then at 28th & Harney at 10:30 AM. The tour will cover overall facts about the streetcar project and we will walk along the current mainline track construction (on public sidewalks). This preview tour will help better plan future walking tours that I plan to do monthly on Saturdays. Each walking tour will be about ten blocks in length, just under a mile, and should take about an hour. So join me if you can at these locations, no reservation required. The weather forecast looks decent, but you may want to bring an umbrella just in case!

[almighty_tuna]

Aw man, I would 100% be "on board" to join you tomorrow but will be in Minneapolis. I'm in for at least one future walk to help boost the visibility though.

Do you have anything on social media that we can share and help promote?

[Zephyr]

Since this is a "soft launch", it hasn't been posted on social media, although future tours will be, with an official sign-up. I tried to invite some selective groups for this trial tour, but couldn't generate much interest.

[Stan]

I triple dog dare you to post about it on the Omaha Reddit. You'd get interest, but you'd also get assholes.

[Dusty]

The whole point of the walking tours is to help educate people who are hesitant or on the fence about the streetcar. So yes...bring on the naysayers. This is the opportunity to showcase what is coming and build confidence around that. The soft launch concept is more for building a framework for presentation to work out those kinks. This is why he is inviting select groups to get feedback.

Side note: I will be moving back to Omaha by the end of the summer. At that point, I will be able to get more involved in advocating for the streetcar, better transit network, long-term vision, etc.

[Garrett]

Crosspost from the Millwork thread, but I came across this image on a LinkedIn post about a ULI Nebraska tour of Millwork Commons that includes two envisioned streetcar stops

[Brad]

Crosspost from the Millwork thread, but I came across this image on a LinkedIn post about a ULI Nebraska tour of Millwork Commons that includes two envisioned streetcar stops

Great find. That Ballpark Streetcar stop cant get here soon enough!

[skinzfan23]

That would be great. Quick question, why are there 2 stops so close to each other, are they going in different directions at those points?

[Garrett]

That would be great. Quick question, why are there 2 stops so close to each other, are they going in different directions at those points?

I'd assume just to give options on both sides of Abbott/Cuming St. Spacing is about 650 ft, which is about 2 standard city blocks or a 3 minute walk. Not great, but I see the purpose, especially since I'm sure they may be a bit wary of going further north after the utility debacle in the first phase.

[thenewguy]

That would be great. Quick question, why are there 2 stops so close to each other, are they going in different directions at those points?

I'd assume just to give options on both sides of Abbott/Cuming St. Spacing is about 650 ft, which is about 2 standard city blocks or a 3 minute walk. Not great, but I see the purpose, especially since I'm sure they may be a bit wary of going further north after the utility debacle in the first phase.

that's something that threw me off about NYC at first was the fact that there were subway entrances on either side of the street and until you realize one goes one way and the other goes the other, you stand there for a while trying to figure out how to get to the other side lol

[nebport5]

That would be great. Quick question, why are there 2 stops so close to each other, are they going in different directions at those points?

I'd assume just to give options on both sides of Abbott/Cuming St. Spacing is about 650 ft, which is about 2 standard city blocks or a 3 minute walk. Not great, but I see the purpose, especially since I'm sure they may be a bit wary of going further north after the utility debacle in the first phase.

Not to mention how dicey it is as a pedestrian to cross Cuming.