Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[stadsborgare]

That would be great. Quick question, why are there 2 stops so close to each other, are they going in different directions at those points?

I'd assume just to give options on both sides of Abbott/Cuming St. Spacing is about 650 ft, which is about 2 standard city blocks or a 3 minute walk. Not great, but I see the purpose, especially since I'm sure they may be a bit wary of going further north after the utility debacle in the first phase.

Not to mention how dicey it is as a pedestrian to cross Cuming.

I would make the one stop on Mike Fahey St, since that is where most people enter the ballpark.

[halgy]

I would make the one stop on Mike Fahey St, since that is where most people enter the ballpark.

I'd imagine that there would be at least one additional stop between Capitol and Cuming. Or maybe that one stop is actually closer to Mike Fahey, but the map size didn't allow that. Or maybe it is an effort to break up traffic into the park: drivers and walkers use the south entrance, trolly riders use the north entrance. Or maybe I need to stop pointlessly speculating and get back to work.

Regardless, I'm excited to see this extension on some real proposals. Adding little improvements like this every so often will make the whole system more useful, and hopefully keep the program top-of-mind while any bigger improvements are sorted out.

[stadsborgare]

I think we're undoubtedly going to have an extension, the only question is when. It is not in the budget for the current contract, so will later have to be voted on by the city council or the anti-streetcar public.

But when I look at KC, all the initial opposition to their streetcar has vanished because it has turned out to be a smashing success. Now all I see on their social media pages is people who want the next line extension to go to their neighborhood.

So give it time. Once our streetcar is up and running and people can see the benefits of it, the political climate will change and there will be voters who will then say we should have built the line up to Millwork Commons yesterday (when they were vehement opponents to the whole streetcar idea before).

[Dusty]

I would make the one stop on Mike Fahey St, since that is where most people enter the ballpark.

I'd imagine that there would be at least one additional stop between Capitol and Cuming. Or maybe that one stop is actually closer to Mike Fahey, but the map size didn't allow that. Or maybe it is an effort to break up traffic into the park: drivers and walkers use the south entrance, trolly riders use the north entrance. Or maybe I need to stop pointlessly speculating and get back to work.

Regardless, I'm excited to see this extension on some real proposals. Adding little improvements like this every so often will make the whole system more useful, and hopefully keep the program top-of-mind while any bigger improvements are sorted out.

I think you are taking the stop locations too literal in terms on placement. The rendering is showcasing Millwork Commons. If you spanned out, I bet that stop would shift closer to Mike Fahey St.

I see 3 stops along this path:
10th and Capitol
10th and Mike Fahey St/Meca Dr
11th and Nicholas

[Dusty]

For those of you that missed the Council Bluffs Linkages Study Open House yesterday, they are allowing input online.

You rate four different scenarios.
A. West Broadway BRT
B. 2nd Ave BRT
C. 1st Ave BRT
D. 1st Ave Streetcar

They have some additional questions and a comment box.

https://fhu.mysocialpinpoint.com/counci ... s-linkages

Council Bluffs Linkages Online Engagement
Click on blue Start button

[ita]

Council Bluffs needs a streetcar supporters group asap:

Council Bluffs mayor opposes Omaha Streetcar expansion despite new study

“When you’re looking at over $20 million a mile for the track, plus the bridge to go over the river, plus the impediments with trying to figure out how to cross over 16th street - it makes it really difficult to get behind the idea of a streetcar,” Shudak said.

A streetcar is not a new consideration for Council Bluffs. Former Mayor Matt Walsh wanted one, and the city has attempted it twice before before pulling out.

Shudak said she believes she is not alone in her opinion.

“Public input has strengthened that desire to not have a streetcar here in Council Bluffs, just seeing all the challenges that the citizens of Omaha are going through and the businesses that are seeing those challenges as well,” Shudak said.

If the community sees the results and decides they want a streetcar, Shudak said she would put it to a vote for them and stand behind their decision.

[EastCB]

For those of you that missed the Council Bluffs Linkages Study Open House yesterday, they are allowing input online.

You rate four different scenarios.
A. West Broadway BRT
B. 2nd Ave BRT
C. 1st Ave BRT
D. 1st Ave Streetcar

They have some additional questions and a comment box.

https://fhu.mysocialpinpoint.com/counci ... s-linkages

Council Bluffs Linkages Online Engagement
Click on blue Start button

My first choice would be !st Avenue Streetcar. Then, 2nd Ave BRT

[EastCB]

Council Bluffs needs a streetcar supporters group asap:

Council Bluffs mayor opposes Omaha Streetcar expansion despite new study

“When you’re looking at over $20 million a mile for the track, plus the bridge to go over the river, plus the impediments with trying to figure out how to cross over 16th street - it makes it really difficult to get behind the idea of a streetcar,” Shudak said.

A streetcar is not a new consideration for Council Bluffs. Former Mayor Matt Walsh wanted one, and the city has attempted it twice before before pulling out.

Shudak said she believes she is not alone in her opinion.

“Public input has strengthened that desire to not have a streetcar here in Council Bluffs, just seeing all the challenges that the citizens of Omaha are going through and the businesses that are seeing those challenges as well,” Shudak said.

If the community sees the results and decides they want a streetcar, Shudak said she would put it to a vote for them and stand behind their decision.

Yes, we need a streetcar support group. The mayor has no business trying to run our city. She has no business experience.

[Mapguy]

I think the best chance for a positive vote in CB is to let the dust settle in Omaha 1st and see how popular it is.

I dont think a vote right now be a good move. Also I think the state of Iowa would be instrumental in pushing it forward by subsidizing the potential bridge say 50-80% cost sharing. Because the bridge alone is probably 50-100 million or more depending on how nice it is. Id assume 10' sidewalks and possibly a 2 lane vehicle span that gives the bridge some utility beyond a streetcar.

[ita]

Council Bluffs needs a streetcar supporters group asap:

Council Bluffs mayor opposes Omaha Streetcar expansion despite new study

“When you’re looking at over $20 million a mile for the track, plus the bridge to go over the river, plus the impediments with trying to figure out how to cross over 16th street - it makes it really difficult to get behind the idea of a streetcar,” Shudak said.

A streetcar is not a new consideration for Council Bluffs. Former Mayor Matt Walsh wanted one, and the city has attempted it twice before before pulling out.

Shudak said she believes she is not alone in her opinion.

“Public input has strengthened that desire to not have a streetcar here in Council Bluffs, just seeing all the challenges that the citizens of Omaha are going through and the businesses that are seeing those challenges as well,” Shudak said.

If the community sees the results and decides they want a streetcar, Shudak said she would put it to a vote for them and stand behind their decision.

Yes, we need a streetcar support group. The mayor has no business trying to run our city. She has no business experience.

I haven't seen anyone step up, outside of the former Mayor and Brandon Garrett, really go up to bat for the streetcar, but CB needs a group of individuals, business and civic leaders and developers to advocate for the potential streetcar.

To the mayor's defense, I think she is concerned about cost and yes, the streetcar is expensive. Any BRT option would help elevate the City's transit options. However, like the Omaha BRT on Dodge, if Council Bluffs goes with BRT, it's just enhancing what's already there. Some may even be concerned with the stops that are further away that work for BRT but don't for traditional bus routes, unless they run both. I don't think the mayor is considering that at all.

From an economic development and growth perspective, I think the potential overstates the impact, especially along West Broadway. A dedicated right of way on First Ave is the best case scenario BRT route, but costs more than the other BRT options and falls short in terms of what could be achieved under the streetcar scenario.

I am cherry picking, I suppose, but let's look at just two metrics between the best case scenario BRT along 1st Ave and the streetcar. First metric is price of each project. If I were talking to the mayor or other skeptical persons, I would compare the worst case scenario of the streetcar and the best case of the BRT. The best case scenario cost estimate for the BRT route is $60M. The streetcar and bridge high end budget estimate is a clean $500M. That's over 8x more expensive than the BRT. Admittedly, that's a hard pill to swallow.

The second metric is housing growth potential over 30 years. The BRT's best case scenario is 12,000 while the streetcar's lowest potential estimate is 15,000 households. That's a mere 25% increase. Not enough to justify, right?

Let's look at that potential 3,000 household difference. Housing is expensive to build, and only gets more expensive over time. I think it's very conservative to estimate the average cost to construct one residential unit in a multifamily development at $250,000. Those 3,000 additional units could equate to an additional $750M in investment. If we start looking at best case scenario results from the streetcar, ie. 25,000 new housing units, or 13,000 more than the best BRT scenario, then there's $3B difference in investment. That's just the investment cost of building housing!

Other metrics are also promising. The streetcar could potentially lead 600,000 square feet of commercial space, or $120M more in investment, based on a conservative estimate of $200 per square foot for new buildings.

The other thing I have been thinking about is that, based on Omaha's BRT and streetcar projects, the safer bet is actually the streetcar from an economic perspective. While there have been a number of new investments along the BRT route since it opened, I do not know if the BRT was a direct contributor. I actually think the BRT helped facilitate the City to adopt TOD zoning and less restrictive parking limits. Indirectly, BRT helped result in additional development, or at least more dense development, along Dodge, particularly in multi-family building. Additionally, from a transit perspective, ORBT hasn't really increased ridership versus the route that already existed.

However, the streetcar, even before it's been completed has directly resulted in over a $1B of development along the route, far outpacing initial estimates of potential private investment and development. I personally think that based on what we have seen on our side of the river, when we are talking economic development, the streetcar is CB's best bet.

In my uneducated opinion, I would choose the streetcar, always, if it's an option.

Last thought, and one caveat to the streetcar extension. I think if CB pursues the streetcar extension it must be done in conjunction with the development of NP Dodge Golf Course. I think worse case scenario might be taking into account NP Dodge remaining a golf course, and in that case, maybe it's not worth it for the city. However, opening it up for development along with the streetcar would be transformative (sorry for the over used term).

[stadsborgare]

I always feel a bit of sadness at the conclusion of the College World Series, because all the excitement is gone, the visitors leave town, the tents are taken down, it turns quiet again.

But this year is different. Instead of sadness it is glee I feel, because the end of the CWS means streetcar construction downtown is going to ramp up again!

[skinzfan23]

That's a good way to put it. I feel those same emotions.

[thenewguy]

Council Bluffs needs a streetcar supporters group asap:

Council Bluffs mayor opposes Omaha Streetcar expansion despite new study

“When you’re looking at over $20 million a mile for the track, plus the bridge to go over the river, plus the impediments with trying to figure out how to cross over 16th street - it makes it really difficult to get behind the idea of a streetcar,” Shudak said.

A streetcar is not a new consideration for Council Bluffs. Former Mayor Matt Walsh wanted one, and the city has attempted it twice before before pulling out.

Shudak said she believes she is not alone in her opinion.

“Public input has strengthened that desire to not have a streetcar here in Council Bluffs, just seeing all the challenges that the citizens of Omaha are going through and the businesses that are seeing those challenges as well,” Shudak said.

If the community sees the results and decides they want a streetcar, Shudak said she would put it to a vote for them and stand behind their decision.

Yes, we need a streetcar support group. The mayor has no business trying to run our city. She has no business experience.

I haven't seen anyone step up, outside of the former Mayor and Brandon Garrett, really go up to bat for the streetcar, but CB needs a group of individuals, business and civic leaders and developers to advocate for the potential streetcar.

To the mayor's defense, I think she is concerned about cost and yes, the streetcar is expensive. Any BRT option would help elevate the City's transit options. However, like the Omaha BRT on Dodge, if Council Bluffs goes with BRT, it's just enhancing what's already there. Some may even be concerned with the stops that are further away that work for BRT but don't for traditional bus routes, unless they run both. I don't think the mayor is considering that at all.

From an economic development and growth perspective, I think the potential overstates the impact, especially along West Broadway. A dedicated right of way on First Ave is the best case scenario BRT route, but costs more than the other BRT options and falls short in terms of what could be achieved under the streetcar scenario.

I am cherry picking, I suppose, but let's look at just two metrics between the best case scenario BRT along 1st Ave and the streetcar. First metric is price of each project. If I were talking to the mayor or other skeptical persons, I would compare the worst case scenario of the streetcar and the best case of the BRT. The best case scenario cost estimate for the BRT route is $60M. The streetcar and bridge high end budget estimate is a clean $500M. That's over 8x more expensive than the BRT. Admittedly, that's a hard pill to swallow.

The second metric is housing growth potential over 30 years. The BRT's best case scenario is 12,000 while the streetcar's lowest potential estimate is 15,000 households. That's a mere 25% increase. Not enough to justify, right?

Let's look at that potential 3,000 household difference. Housing is expensive to build, and only gets more expensive over time. I think it's very conservative to estimate the average cost to construct one residential unit in a multifamily development at $250,000. Those 3,000 additional units could equate to an additional $750M in investment. If we start looking at best case scenario results from the streetcar, ie. 25,000 new housing units, or 13,000 more than the best BRT scenario, then there's $3B difference in investment. That's just the investment cost of building housing!

Other metrics are also promising. The streetcar could potentially lead 600,000 square feet of commercial space, or $120M more in investment, based on a conservative estimate of $200 per square foot for new buildings.

The other thing I have been thinking about is that, based on Omaha's BRT and streetcar projects, the safer bet is actually the streetcar from an economic perspective. While there have been a number of new investments along the BRT route since it opened, I do not know if the BRT was a direct contributor. I actually think the BRT helped facilitate the City to adopt TOD zoning and less restrictive parking limits. Indirectly, BRT helped result in additional development, or at least more dense development, along Dodge, particularly in multi-family building. Additionally, from a transit perspective, ORBT hasn't really increased ridership versus the route that already existed.

However, the streetcar, even before it's been completed has directly resulted in over a $1B of development along the route, far outpacing initial estimates of potential private investment and development. I personally think that based on what we have seen on our side of the river, when we are talking economic development, the streetcar is CB's best bet.

In my uneducated opinion, I would choose the streetcar, always, if it's an option.

Last thought, and one caveat to the streetcar extension. I think if CB pursues the streetcar extension it must be done in conjunction with the development of NP Dodge Golf Course. I think worse case scenario might be taking into account NP Dodge remaining a golf course, and in that case, maybe it's not worth it for the city. However, opening it up for development along with the streetcar would be transformative (sorry for the over used term).

I'm not a golfer, but my only contention is that there's a lot of room for development or leasing of empty bays around town before they remove Dodge based on speculation. If a developer showed up and said they had leasing, retail, etc all locked down and it was a slam dunk, then maybe take out the golf course. But to remove it, then build, then try to attract people, business, etc, without the guarantee seems like a waste of a nice course.

[EastCB]

I too am not a golfer. When my son and his wife lived in CB they never went to Dodge park , Usually, Fox Run(now Whispering Woods)or Bent Tree. And Yes, the Dodge family did donate land for a park, but not all the land Dodge park consists of now. It should be redeveloped and a portion could be retained for the original vision of the Dodge family. A park for all of Council Bluffs to use, not just golfers.

[Gobears27]

While we are waiting for the results of the council bluffs pel study. I’m curious what the next step would be if the streetcar option is recommended? What do you think will be recommended? And how much influence would the council bluffs mayor have on the recommendation of the pel study?

[stadsborgare]

After the initial KC Streetcar line opened some years ago, I read they've had to make tweaks here and there along the route when they found something wasn't working quite right - like eliminating some parking spots here and there, or some traffic lanes.

I notice as our mainline construction is going on, I see some spots where changes may have to be made. In particular, along Farnam St. and the Gene Leahy Mall, it's all slot parking from 11th to 13th, but it seems by guaging the looks of it, a big pickup truck parking there could overhang the air space around the track that the streetcar needs. So they may have to change it to parallel parking like they do on the other side of the park on Douglas St.

[Busguy2010]

I fully anticipate... IF they're smart - they'll travel with a convoy of tow trucks during testing and for the first few months of regular service. Something tells me there's a high likelihood this will be a very large headache for the streetcar. Look at the way people drive around here. I do not have high hopes that it will be a smooth rollout. I see a bunch of dummies out there not understanding the concept of a streetcar. Or god forbid, detractors purposefully blocking the path of the line. If I were a person with reason to be downtown, I would probably be more apt to take the bus for the first few months. I personally, probably have zero reason to use it, other than for my want to try it for fun. Its only been 30 years in the making and all.

[Dusty]

These congestion areas are called pinch points, They can come in a lot of forms. It could be cars flooding out of garage after a big event lets out. People purposely not letting the streetcar pass because they are more worried about leaving the garage and squeezing themselves into traffic. It could be cars/trucks blocking the path for various reasons. if they are smart, they would eliminate all on-street parking adjacent to tracks. Why would you take that chance knowing people will deliberately block it or park poorly? The few parking stalls you eliminate can be dispersed into a nearby parking garage.

These removed parking stalls now can be converted to better public space. Widening sidewalks, adding benches and planter boxes, adding bike parking /bike lockers, etc.

[locoluke]

if they are smart, they would eliminate all on-street parking adjacent to tracks. Why would you take that chance knowing people will deliberately block it or park poorly? The few parking stalls you eliminate can be dispersed into a nearby parking garage.

I agree, but you ever tried to tell a business owner you want to take away the parking in front of their business?

As for pinch points, ORBT buses regularly get stuck in the line to turn into the garage at 12th and Dodge. It doesn’t help that an ORBT stop is immediately before the entrance for the garage.

[Dusty]

if they are smart, they would eliminate all on-street parking adjacent to tracks. Why would you take that chance knowing people will deliberately block it or park poorly? The few parking stalls you eliminate can be dispersed into a nearby parking garage.

I agree, but you ever tried to tell a business owner you want to take away the parking in front of their business?

As for pinch points, ORBT buses regularly get stuck in the line to turn into the garage at 12th and Dodge. It doesn’t help that an ORBT stop is immediately before the entrance for the garage.

They are only clinging to what they know. A car culture where you park 5 feet from the front door. Instead of circling around and around looking for the perfect parking stall, just park in the garage already. Faster and more convenient.

[Dusty]

I know there has not been any mention of official colors or names for the streetcar. I would guess they are going with a two tone of blue and orange calling it OSCAR.

Any thoughts?

[Brad]

I know there has not been any mention of official colors or names for the streetcar. I would guess they are going with a two tone of blue and orange calling it OSCAR.

Any thoughts?

I think it’s being officially announced on Thursday. I like it.

[locoluke]

I know there has not been any mention of official colors or names for the streetcar. I would guess they are going with a two tone of blue and orange calling it OSCAR.

Any thoughts?

I personally dislike giving inanimate objects human names, but it’d track with The Chuck and The Bob. I’m a little disappointed we don’t refer to the Gene Leahy Mall as just The Gene.

My guess would’ve been that the colors might be similar to those used on the Omaha Streetcar Authority branded materials at the construction sites currently.

[thenewguy]

I know there has not been any mention of official colors or names for the streetcar. I would guess they are going with a two tone of blue and orange calling it OSCAR.

Any thoughts?

why blue and orange?

[nebport5]

I know there has not been any mention of official colors or names for the streetcar. I would guess they are going with a two tone of blue and orange calling it OSCAR.

Any thoughts?

I feel like it may be fodder for the anti-streetcar crowd to use Sesame Street and cartoonish AI -> Jean dressed as Big Bird driving "Oscar" full of gleeful developers holding wads of tiff money.



I suppose there may be an opportunity to save paint money by combing the colors of Metro and OBRT. Personally I don't mind the name but the image gives me clip art vibes and I preferred the earlier color scheme.

[nebport5]

I know there has not been any mention of official colors or names for the streetcar. I would guess they are going with a two tone of blue and orange calling it OSCAR.

Any thoughts?

why blue and orange?

Combo of Metro and ORBT.

[thenewguy]

something like this would be pretty sick

[Dusty]

The blue and orange colors are on the website. Same colors on signage of upcoming stations. It's common for transit agencies to use acronyms. I'm not a fan of ORBT, but I can see why they went with OSCAR.

Omaha Street Car Authority Rail or Omaha Street Car Area Rail

One of the original pictures had blue/orange design. I'm sure it will look similar to the picture.

Down the road, they can always rebrand it again when Metro merges all the services under one roof.
Until then....Ride on Oscar, and Walk on Bob. Welcome to Omaha! lol

[Busguy2010]

Just a little tea leaf, those new buses Metro bought added gray, yellow-orange, black, and pink. There was no rhyme or reason, or a rebrand announced. The pink and yellow-orange are the headscratchers. Who signed off on that? Anywho, if those colors are in any way part of Metro's future, please commit to it. One thing we often have around here are beautiful sunsets, so to me, it would make good sense as an abstract sunset paint scheme

Darker blue up top, metro light blue, then yellow orange, thin strip of pink, then black on the bottom. Faded and blended through the colors just like this

Dont have the skill to photo shop that color scheme on a bus or streetcar, but I think you get the gist. If anybody feels like visualizing that.

[guy4omaha]

The blue and orange colors are on the website. Same colors on signage of upcoming stations. It's common for transit agencies to use acronyms. I'm not a fan of ORBT, but I can see why they went with OSCAR.

Omaha Street Car Authority Rail or Omaha Street Car Area Rail

One of the original pictures had blue/orange design. I'm sure it will look similar to the picture.

Down the road, they can always rebrand it again when Metro merges all the services under one roof.
Until then....Ride on Oscar, and Walk on Bob. Welcome to Omaha! lol

Maybe they're aiming as simple as Omaha Street CAR.

[Busguy2010]

...

[Busguy2010]

Omaha Street Car Automobile Restrictor

[Busguy2010]

It feels to me like it should be named as interstellar travel, or the antithesis to that, giving the streetcar name something more going back home. Giving credit to Metro, ORBT was a hit out of the park as the spelled out name AND the acronym both suggest an out of this world fast transit experience. I think our acronym and campaign is the best in the country.

Something equally thoughtful but more "welcome back". While you were out in Orbit(westroads), we're here holding down the fort and always will be.

[iamjacobm]

It feels to me like it should be named as interstellar travel, or the antithesis to that, giving the streetcar name something more going back home. Giving credit to Metro, ORBT was a hit out of the park as the spelled out name AND the acronym both suggest an out of this world fast transit experience. I think our acronym and campaign is the best in the country.

Something equally thoughtful but more "welcome back". While you were out in Orbit(westroads), we're here holding down the fort and always will be.

Doesn't fit the anti interstellar travel them but the below I spent 60 seconds thinking though:

Pedestrian Lifting Urban Transit Omaha (PLUTO)

[Busguy2010]

It feels to me like it should be named as interstellar travel, or the antithesis to that, giving the streetcar name something more going back home. Giving credit to Metro, ORBT was a hit out of the park as the spelled out name AND the acronym both suggest an out of this world fast transit experience. I think our acronym and campaign is the best in the country.

Something equally thoughtful but more "welcome back". While you were out in Orbit(westroads), we're here holding down the fort and always will be.

Doesn't fit the anti interstellar travel them but the below I spent 60 seconds thinking though:

Pedestrian Lifting Urban Transit Omaha (PLUTO)

Heyyy, not bad!

[Dusty]

Maybe they're aiming as simple as Omaha Street CAR.

HA! probably. I was like Omaha Street Car Authority R...
Ride, Regional, Rail, etc. LOL. Maybe I was overthinking it, but I get where they are going with it.

[nebport5]

Tomorrow's announcement has been postponed courtesy of the sink hole drama.

[locoluke]

Tomorrow's announcement has been postponed courtesy of the sink hole drama.

The website still says August 6 at 2 PM.

[nebport5]

Federal funds secured to study extending Omaha Streetcar to North 24th Street

“Metro Transit is looking at how to improve that service and improve connections between North Omaha, downtown and South Omaha. With the streetcar, we’re going to be looking at extending our network and how do we serve other areas — for example, the Creighton campus, serving North Omaha, do we connect to some of the things the Inland Port Authority is doing,” [Eric]Miller said.

[Garrett]

Interesting, I figured this study would lean more towards bus operations since Metro doesn’t run the streetcar. But an exciting next step nonetheless.