Downtown development - late 80s

[w8ing]

Some pics I scanned in that I took downtown circa 88-89ish. More to follow. I'm working my way thru a rather large bag of prints in need of digital backup.


Jobbers Canyon goes bye bye. This is where Embassy Suites/ConAgra is now on 10th.


Across the Mall then and now


Construction adjacent to The Great Wall


Dance of the cranes. Taken from a parking garage on Douglas.

[DTO Luv]

Wow! I like to see old pics of DT, but we don't see alot of them from this time period. Thanks.

[adam186]

Cool, keep em coming!

[MTO]

Your archive is awesome!

[w8ing]

Your archive is awesome!

Thanks, MTO.

[eomaha]

Those are great w8ing!


But I think I'm experiencing deja vu... didn't I see these posted somewhere here relatively recently?

[Big E]

Careful. If you post too much Jobber's Canyon stuff I'll probably go postal on someone.

-Big E

[w8ing]

But I think I'm experiencing deja vu... didn't I see these posted somewhere here relatively recently?

Well one is in my sig. If you saw them posted here besides this someone else linked them or had similar shots. My first visit to this site was on Friday. These shots have been on my Flickr stream for awhile.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I love your photos.

I always get so mad, though, when I'm reminded of the Jobber's Canyon Massacre.

One thing I find really funny (and by funny I mean enraging) about the Omaha article in the United Airlines magazine, is that there is a part where Gotschalk (sp?) is talking about how downtown redevelopment started with the Gene Leahy Mall back in the seventies, and that ConAgra's campus is some great example of early downtown redevelopment. HAHAHA!!! Those are two of the worst examples of "redevelopment" EVER, responsible for the tearing down of ENORMOUS amounts of historic density downtown.

They were trying to say that all the amazing growth we've had downtown recently is STILL PLAYING OFF OF THOSE PROJECTS.

In reality, the amazing growth we've had downtown recently is only the beginning of the RECOVERY from those disasters.

[guy4omaha]

^ I would just have to agree to disagree. At least with the Central Park Mall (GLM) portion. Everything started there. GLM was the dream of the late '60s to early 70's that actually happened and made everyone believe again. It was the catalyst. It reversed the negative momentum. It began what is now the fruitful part of the exponential curve. Without the mall, it is possible that Downtown would have simply imploded. In other words you should have seen Omaha before GLM. Those were some ugly and dilapidated buildings. If we kept every single historic building there would be nothing but soddies and wood frame structures around here.

[eomaha]

I agree with guy... we'd be looking at vacant warehouses for the next century if we insisted on keeping them all. KC is faced with the same situation with West Bottoms... and they are a significantly larger metropolitan area. And I for one actually really like Heartland of America Park and GLM. These really are very unique green settings when compared with other cities.

[Swift]

Yeah, when I read that in the article I litterally went "Ha!" I thought he was just being euphemistic.

I think the GLM probably helped, but I think that ConAgra hurt a lot.

It's hard to really tell though...who knows how much of the Old Market's success is due to all those business people being downtown and needing a place to eat for lunch.

They could have done it in a much less scarring manner...but what could we really expect? It was the 80's afterall.

In the long run it might have been a painful act that served to stop more bad things happening to downtown. A cauterization of the wound that was downtown in the late 70's early 80's.

[Omaha Cowboy]

^ I would just have to agree to disagree. At least with the Central Park Mall (GLM) portion. Everything started there. GLM was the dream of the late '60s to early 70's that actually happened and made everyone believe again. It was the catalyst. It reversed the negative momentum. It began what is now the fruitful part of the exponential curve. Without the mall, it is possible that Downtown would have simply imploded. In other words you should have seen Omaha before GLM. Those were some ugly and dilapidated buildings. If we kept every single historic building there would be nothing but soddies and wood frame structures around here.

Roger this..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[w8ing]

This was on the SE corner of 10th & Farnam where Conagra's walk of flags is now. I believe these were taken in 88 or 89.

[Big E]

I agree with guy... we'd be looking at vacant warehouses for the next century if we insisted on keeping them all.

I have to call BS on this considering the city offered to GIVE Jobber's Canyon to ConAgra to convert it. Had ConAgra had an ounce of vision (well, what's his name anyway... his name is escaping me right now) they'd have the greatest corporate campus in the country right now - not to mention property they could sell for HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS when the time inevitbaly came to move to another campus.

As far as GLM and HOAP go, I agree... they are both VERY nice downtown amenities, but neither is better than what WAS there - and what that could have become. When I walk around downtown and see all the things that truly need to be bulldozed, and realize what we lost forever for the sake of some landscaping, it drives me nuts - and sums up Omaha's economic and cultural stagnation (recent years excluded) perfectly.

-Big E

[Omaha Cowboy]

As far as GLM and HOAP go, I agree... they are both VERY nice downtown amenities, but neither is better than what WAS there - and what that could have become. When I walk around downtown and see all the things that truly need to be bulldozed, and realize what we lost forever for the sake of some landscaping, it drives me nuts - and sums up Omaha's economic and cultural stagnation (recent years excluded) perfectly.

-Big E

Speaking specifically of the GLM..Do you remember what was there E?..

Delapitated old bars and strip clubs and IMO, worthy of the bulldoze..No question the GLM is 1000X better than the crud that was there before..

And there is also no question that the GLM once it was finally completed in 1982, was an original catalyst for developments we now have around that general DT area..The GLM enhances the overall Old Market experience..

I was never in favor of the Jobbers Canyon bulldoze for the Conagra Campus..But as it relates to the GLM area, lamenting what was there before is a bit of a strectch..Even for the staunchest of conservationists..

Believe me..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Omaha Cowboy]

Conservation isn't simply about what is or was, but also about what could be.

-Big E

I get that..But there really was no 'could be' for what was bulldozed in favor of the GLM (and most of the tennants were long gone by 1975..Before the bulldozing occured)..That is my opinion..Which you will feel free to disagree with..But comparing (or even inferring) what occupied the land previous to the GLM to the architecture of the section of DT Baltimore you are referencing (and I have seen this area in person) is simply apples and oranges..

Not a good or equal comparison..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[w8ing]

Didn't mean to stir anything up. I took the pictures back then because they were interesting and I posted them because they are markers in the city's history.

As for the debate, I wish they had save more of the buildings than they did but recognize the development going on now likely wouldn't have happened without some demolition and development.

[adam186]

^w8ing, I wouldn't worry about it too much. This kinda stuff happens all the time. You'll get used to it after awhile.

[MTO]

^w8ing, I wouldn't worry about it too much. This kinda stuff happens all the time. You'll get used to it after awhile.

I’ll second that

[Big E]

W8ing, if you've go more, let's see 'em. I figure it will either make my point for me or my head will explode.

Either way, I'll find closure.

And reading back on some of the posts, I think people are missing my point a little bit. When buildings are too far gone to salvage, they need to go. I can't rationally argue against that. My whole argument in all of this is that buildings like the ones we've lost should NEVER be allowed to become that far gone. The neglect in the first place is worse than the bulldozing as a solution.

I also wasn't trying to make a direct architectural comparison between the old GLM site and The Block in Baltimore. It was just a claim that buildings shouldn't garner their historical worthiness from their tenants (or lack thereof).

-Big E

[guy4omaha]

W8ing, if you've go more, let's see 'em. I figure it will either make my point for me or my head will explode. .....

I think people are missing my point a little bit. When buildings are too far gone to salvage, they need to go. I can't rationally argue against that. My whole argument in all of this is that buildings like the ones we've lost should NEVER be allowed to become that far gone.

First of all, whatever direction the thread takes, I hope your head doesn't explode. Ouch!!!

Regarding your other points, I like old buildings and I appreciate new ones as well. Seems to me balance is the key. I might be in the minority "again", but I would not like our downtown as well if all we had was old buildings. I probably take some of you guys too literally. But it seems you (collectively) are saying that all old buildings should stay and a new one should not go up unless a vacant lot is found. And the same goes for green space creation.

I was very disappointed when they removed Jobbers Canyon. However, many years later I have to admit to myself at least, that I think on the whole the project has been a plus. I don't say that to be an antagonist. It is just how I feel. That is after getting used to the idea for awhile.

Something new, something old....

One other little thing. What is up with all of this '80s bashing? I lived through that period and I thought of our culture then as being civilized. I mean we were so hip. Styles come and go and oftentimes return again. For those who seem so quick to bash the 80s, be prepared in 20 years to read comments from younger posters who comment how they think everything from the first decade of the 21st century that you admire and think is cool and had perhaps a hand in sucks. While I don't wish it on any of you, I guarantee you that there will be people in the future who will just not get how or why we could have ever designed things the way we do now.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Big E]

I'm certainly not singling out the 80s or Omaha. There's an entire half-century to blame for horrible urban planning/revitalization. For example, I think the Dodge Street Expressway is just as stupid a waste as the demolition of Jobbers' Canyon... it just has much less historical significance right now.

Stupidity just happened to hit here - and hard - around that time (late 60s I would say was the beginning, and it went on through the JC demolition). We were almost out of truly remarkable buildings before we realized we shouldn't be knocking them down every time we had trouble finding a parking spot. Remember, the Old Market was targeted for demolition at one point, too. The space between La Buvette and the Old Market Lofts hasn't been empty forever, either.

This is a generations long problem, and isn't just rooted in a lack of respect for history. There's a bazillion things contributing to it, but you can sum it up fairly reasonably with gluttony and greed.

-Big E

[Omaha Cowboy]

And reading back on some of the posts, I think people are missing my point a little bit. When buildings are too far gone to salvage, they need to go. I can't rationally argue against that. My whole argument in all of this is that buildings like the ones we've lost should NEVER be allowed to become that far gone. The neglect in the first place is worse than the bulldozing as a solution.

-Big E

If your point is that buildings in a delapidated state (for a given area) should have not been allowed to become so in the first place..Then I think most everyone on this site (including myself ) would agree with you..

Most of us know at a minimum, the questionable urban planning many civic leaders conjured up for their cities from 1955 to about 1975..

My specific point was that area, by the early 70's, was a blighted eyesore and the bulldozing of the said buildings for the creation of the GLM was one of the most correct and important decisions made in the past 30 years for DT Omaha..

In the end, I think we can all agree with both points made after your clarification..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Lost historic architecture aside, I just really don't understand how you can give ANY credit to the Central Park Mall for the development that is happening today decades later. The late 80s and 90 were a horrible time for downtown, then more than 20 years later things start developing and you credit the GLM??? Ish don sink so.

You might as well credit Omaha's founding fathers, for without them Omaha would not exist, and therefore all this great new development wouldn't be possible.

[eomaha]

I personally think the current decade would have been 'horrible' as well... if we didn't have Gene Leahy Mall and the Heartland of America Park. With the exception of the Old Market, I personally think these are two of downtown Omaha's most important attributes in contributing to the highly desirable atmosphere which downtown Omaha has become today.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Lost historic architecture aside, I just really don't understand how you can give ANY credit to the Central Park Mall for the development that is happening today decades later. The late 80s and 90 were a horrible time for downtown, then more than 20 years later things start developing and you credit the GLM??? Ish don sink so.

You might as well credit Omaha's founding fathers, for without them Omaha would not exist, and therefore all this great new development wouldn't be possible.

I couldn't disagree more with you on this one Aaron..The impact of the GLM once opened in 1982 greatly ENHANCED the Old Market experience..And I dare say, helped it continue to thrive through the decade of the 80's. People flocked to the park in droves for an evening stroll after dinner/drinks in the OM (and still do today 25 years later). People remember and appreciate the experience..And indeed, the GLM can be credited with helping spur the development we see today..Why? Because without it, no habit would really have been formed for people going into DT minus the Old Market..You don't know what you have in your DT in totality unless you experience it firsthand..And that's EXACTLY what the GLM did (and continues to do)..Gives people another reason to go DT outside of the Old market..Thus starting a habit (and tradition)..

I experienced this myself growing up in the 80's (I'm rounding into 40 years old in 2007)..You are probably too young to know of this aspect Aaron..

But if you were old enough as Jeff and I are today, you'd really see and appreciate what the developmnent of the GLM has ment to the overall development of DT..And the enhancement of the DT Omaha experience..

Then AND now..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[w8ing]

Central Park Mall, as it was originally called began construction in the 70s. I was there with my mother for the first public opening of a small section. As a teenager in the 80s attending Central, I skipped many a class and headed downtown and took the 4/14 bus there on weekends to hang out in the Old Market. I saw development begin in earnest in the 80s and have been gladdened to see renovation of older buildings that were spared the wrecking ball in the 90s. Having been to friends apts in the Rorick in the 80s, however, I don't know who'd pay money to own a condo there.

CPM helped turn downtown's reputation around. Prior to that, it was not a place you'd see families hanging out at. Now Jethro's may have been a big draw for the pipe and bong crowd but that wasn't going to create a thriving business. There is no doubt in my mind from my own eyes through the years that CPM, now GLM is a big part of why. My family never went downtown before then. It was considered a seedy place.

[guy4omaha]

Aaron, I am old enough to have solid memories of the political and economic development talk before, during and after the Central Park Mall and then later the Heartland of America Park. Having lived through that I can see the connection on one thing leading to another so clearly. Not being younger and having a more than 10 to 20 year point of reference, it is difficult for me to understand how these cause and effects are not seen. Another problem I have is I have gotten just old enough that I can't remember clearly anymore what I didn't know when I was 20.

Since you doubt what we're saying, let me point out a little more specifically my points of reference. First of all I just have always been very interested in downtown from my earliest memories of shopping there with my parents in the 1960s. I have always read the paper for the economic headlines. I remember going to shows at the Civic where they had Riverfront development models on display in the late 60s and early 70s. They were mostly dreams back then. A lot of people said downtown was dead and these models were stupid. Some of them showed a mall. The CPM. Later Omaha actually completed one section of the mall and put in the W Dale Clark Library and still the doubter's crowed. But Omaha persevered and the mall came to be bit by bit. The new crowds downtown were glorious. Hotdog vendors. People eating lunch outside. It simply transformed the area. Northwestern Bell built their tower. Swanson refurbished their building. Central Park Plaza was built and for a few years even Parkfair Mall and the Brandeis Mall flourished. More street level activity. The Landmark building was built. The Peter Kiewit Conference Center was built. All of these projects came to be by project leaders who cited in public statements a renewed confidence in downtown due to what had been proved possible by the mall. Don't forget the LiDioyt and Burlington Buildings. Don't forget the Greenhouse either. Several of these projects I have heard you be critical of numerous times. But the point is people we're taking business and development risks downtown again. This last point cannot be overemphasized.

I also worked in the Mayor's office from 1985 through 1987. A lot of my time there was with the Mayor's Office on Economic Development and also the Planning Department. I spoke several times with Alden Aust about his memories on Omaha economic development and, in particular, Gene Leahy's visions. I was privy to conversations between city administrators and Omaha's business leaders as they discussed Omaha economic development past present and future.

A case in point is the Civic Auditorium. The Boyle administration was conducting several concurrent studies on whether to renovate the auditorium or to build a new one. The committees of city personnel, business leaders and hired consultants gathered studies that had been done in the late 70's as well as conduct these new studies in the mid-80's. Several times I thought we were going to take action but alas it didn't come to fruition. Later about 10 years, more or less, PJ Morgan does some more studies, consults the studies from the 70s and 80s and renovates the Civic much like one of the options we suggested in the mid 80s. Finally the Qwest Center gets done in our current time period. So my point to all of this rambling is that the Qwest has been on the minds and books for a good 30 years. The Qwest was not an idea that was born out of isolation and solely by people who had no ties to the older studies and ideas.

This stuff you see as only recent progress has been in the works for a long, long time. People like Marty Shukert, Bob Peters, Greg Peterson, Ken Johnson, Lou Meyers, etc. for the city have been part of these projects all along as city employees, former employees, consultants etc. The same goes for the likes of Harold Anderson, John Gottschalk, Bruce Lauritzen, Bill Henry, the Durhams, Willis Strauss, Walter Scott, etc. from the business community. These people and their associates and/or their direct predecessors have been involved over this entire or most of this entire 40 year period. They were all involved in the dreams of what would become the Central Park Mall. They were involved in the Central Park Mall construction and completion. They have been involved in much of the development that has occured since. It is all connected and part of a plan that was hatched in the late 60s. Actually it can be traced back at least as far as AV Sorenson. I was there during a 3 year window in the mid-80s to see and hear firsthand the actual players make these references to the past (at that time) and to state their dreams or intentions for the future. For me it is not just an opinion, it is a fact I have lived through.

This discussion tonight reminds me of one of the most eye-opening revelations I had when I was a young 24 year old working for city hall. And that was how the Mayor's office and the rest of City Hall is so dependent on the business community (and then the select few very powerful business leaders) to get anything done. And related to that finally is how long-range the planning is done. Individual projects that range in the tens and hundreds of millions of dollars are in the planning stages oftentimes for decades before implementation. Revitalizing entire downtown districts even longer. The chess moves are planned and sequenced years in advance.

The dream of the Central Park Mall and the larger dream it is a part of has been shaping Omaha for the past 40 years and its impact is not nearly over yet. Which is what is so exciting. There are more planned (dreamed of) chess moves to play out yet. The Pinnacle Block and the World-Herald's vacating thier headquarters block are very strategic. It probably won't happen overnight but patience young friends. There is critical movement going on. I don't have anything specific other than knowing the architect who says he helped draw two different tower proposals for PacLife. And who knows the timeline on that one. But the stage is being set for something. We are getting closer. It is only a matter of time. It is not a question of if but when. Before the Central Park Mall, Downtown Omaha was definitely a question of if. Many thought never. . . that is until the little mall proved them wrong. From the beginning the mall was planned to be the first domino, the catalyst from which all the rest of the momentum would derive and grow. It is so cool how so much of this has actually occurred as the planners said it would. Spooky actually.

[Omaha Cowboy]

guy4omaha-

A very well stated post..In fact, one of the finest I have ever read on this forum..

For what it's worth, you get a bigtime Cowboy BRAVO for that one..

All forumers, both young and old, will benefit from reading your latest contribution..

Thanks ..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[guy4omaha]

Thank you Cowboy. And a big I-29 Toot of the Horn to you for having the perseverance to read through the entire post. I wish I could express myself with fewer words. By the way history is another one of my passions. I know a little bit but wish I had time to learn more. And unfortunately some of it slips out of my memory it seems like everyday.

[Omaha Cowboy]

Thanks guy4..

And I thought your length of expression for your last post was spot on!..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[Linkin5]

Ish don sink so.

hahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahhahahahaha

[Bob from Omaha]

I agree with guy... we'd be looking at vacant warehouses for the next century if we insisted on keeping them all.

I have to call BS on this considering the city offered to GIVE Jobber's Canyon to ConAgra to convert it. Had ConAgra had an ounce of vision (well, what's his name anyway... his name is escaping me right now) they'd have the greatest corporate campus in the country right now - not to mention property they could sell for HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS when the time inevitbaly came to move to another campus.

As far as GLM and HOAP go, I agree... they are both VERY nice downtown amenities, but neither is better than what WAS there - and what that could have become. When I walk around downtown and see all the things that truly need to be bulldozed, and realize what we lost forever for the sake of some landscaping, it drives me nuts - and sums up Omaha's economic and cultural stagnation (recent years excluded) perfectly.

-Big E

I don't have a problem with your opinion, except for the idea that Heartland of America Park not being better than what was there before. Prior to the consrtuction of HOAP, it was an abandoned battery plant.

As for Jobber's Canyon, some of the buildings weren't salvagable. Not every building can be saved.

On the other hand, Marty Shukert came up with an unbelievable rendering of a ConAgra headquarters. It featured a round glass tower for the corporate headquarters and the operating companies locating in some Jobbers Canyon buildings. Marty is an amazing visionary.

I still would have liked to see Marina City developed, but in the end you need someone with BOTH vision AND money. Oh, and desire as well.

One last thing, and not many people remember this: Construction on the Central Park Mall was halted for years by then Mayor Ed Zorinsky. It was the 70's and there was a recession. Ed tried to make a name for himself by saving the nation via not requesting funds to continue construction.

The mall did in fact do what it was built to do. It brought people downtown when before no one went there. It spawned development downtown at a time when downtown was in fact dying. No, not all the development can be traced to the mall, but I wouldn't discount it either.

[iamjacobm]

Ran into this pitcure of Jobber's Canyon I hadn't seen before. Supposed to be at 8th and Jackson.

[nebugeater]

2,210 days between posts! Not bad!

[Linkin5]

Might as well rehash the Jobber's Canyon argument.

[jessep28]

[ShawJ]

Might as well rehash the Jobber's Canyon argument.

They should have leveled the Old Market while they were at it.

[S33]

It's the 1%'ers who salvage these old, dilapidated structures to justify reselling these properties at inflated values without actually having to build new. I vote "Detroit-style" demolition for downtown/midtown areas.