Omaha Streetcar Discussion

[adam186]

They finally turned it in. They've been passing around that thing for a couple of months now. Glad it got some pub.

[Coyote]

Streetcar supported by eager developers

Several downtown developers jumped aboard the proposed streetcar plan and called on Mayor Mike Fahey to start laying the track for the proposed $55 million project.

"This puts Omaha on the map," said Ben Proctor, sales manager for Riverfront Place, the soon-to-be-opened high-rise condo project north of Qwest Center Omaha.

Developers and their representatives signed statements of support that were delivered Wednesday to Fahey and members of the Omaha City Council.

[joeglow]

There was a big front page story in the Midlands section today about DT building owners, investors, and listing agents who were behind the streetcar effort. It also touched on economic develepment the expect to occur.

The pub is nice, but this really puts no credibility behind it. Like I said earlier, this is like the CEO of Conagra sending in an article talking about how great an investment his company is. Obviously someone who has something to gain will support it (as the investors and developers here do). Do you really expect them to oppose spending someone else's money (in this, the government's) when it will translate into more money for them?

Like I asked for eariler, all I want to see is an unbiased source that can quantify the benefits.

[redfield]

Do you really expect them to oppose spending someone else's money (in this, the government's) when it will translate into more money for them?

That TIF money goes to the developers now when they do these projects. Under the current proposal, some of that TIF would pay for the streetcar, and therefor not go to the developers like it does now. For them to step out and support this concept knowing that it could affect their TIF money says that they understand that the enhanced value created by a steetcar would outweigh the lost TIF revenue.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Do you really expect them to oppose spending someone else's money (in this, the government's) when it will translate into more money for them?

This is inaccurate.

Obviously streetcars will be great for development, and vice versa, so you can't blame the developers for supporting the plan. But the only way a streetcar would translate into money for a developer would be if it were a success, in which case it would probaly follow that it wouldn't be a burden on taxpayers.

[Omaha Cowboy]

tuna, redfield and Streets of Omaha:

Right on the money..

Adding anything else would be piling on..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[joeglow]

Do you really expect them to oppose spending someone else's money (in this, the government's) when it will translate into more money for them?

This is inaccurate.

Obviously streetcars will be great for development, and vice versa, so you can't blame the developers for supporting the plan. But the only way a streetcar would translate into money for a developer would be if it were a success, in which case it would probaly follow that it wouldn't be a burden on taxpayers.

You miss what I am saying. I KNOW it will increase development. This will, obviously, translate into quicker appreciation in property values which DOES directly translate into MORE money for these people. Now, my question that I am looking for (and we may not have quantified it yet) is will this development be enough to justify the cost? Thus, I am not saying the system is a bad idea. Rather, asking the people who stand to benefit from ANY uptick in land and building appreciation (no matter how small) the most, is probably not the most responsible thing the government can do.

After all, as a tax accountant, I think it is a GREAT idea for the country to double the size of the tax code. I am betting a number of people here would say I have a vested interest in that happening. Thus, I may not be the best person to look to for guidance.

For them to step out and support this concept knowing that it could affect their TIF money says that they understand that the enhanced value created by a steetcar would outweigh the lost TIF revenue.

EXACTLY my point. Thank you!

[Omaha Cowboy]

You miss what I am saying. I KNOW it will increase development. This will, obviously, translate into quicker appreciation in property values which DOES directly translate into MORE money for these people. Now, my question that I am looking for (and we may not have quantified it yet) is will this development be enough to justify the cost?

You're asking a question that we can't have an answer for until the line is established..All studies have shown that this indeed SHOULD happen (cost justification).. But we wont know until it's up and running..And you have to start somewhere..

For an (outside of Omaha) answer though, see Portland OR..Once they built a similar line there, it created an economically viable and profitable urban mixed use entertainment and residential area called the Pearl District..Part of the initial Omaha line will include the North Downtown area with hope for a similar effect..


..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[omahahawk]

You're asking a question that we can't have an answer for until the line is established..All studies have shown that this indeed SHOULD happen (cost justification).. But we wont know until it's up and running..And you have to start somewhere..

EXACTLY!



I know I have written the mayor and city council to get this thing started. I encourage everyone else to do so as well.

[Dark Eyes]

HDR's study assumed OPPD would kick in something like $10 million toward the project.

OPPD had no knowledge of this until the study came out. Which makes one wonder what other completely unfounded assumptions HDR made.

[joeglow]

You're asking a question that we can't have an answer for until the line is established..All studies have shown that this indeed SHOULD happen (cost justification).. But we wont know until it's up and running..And you have to start somewhere..

-Okay. However, all I have asked for is the details of this cost justification. Has the city refused to release it? If so, am I not responsible in simply asking for those details BEFORE making up my mind? As someone here asked, does part of this "cost justification" require $10 million of OPPD's money? If so, is that not the EXACT SAME THING as saying the taxpayers just pay $10 million?

[StreetsOfOmaha]

What are you talking about "making up your mind"? What's to make up. We all know this is good for Omaha.

And why did hardly anyone raise questions about the cost of the WDE, widening of I-80 between Omaha and Lincoln, the CB east beltway, etc??? Seriously!!! Why is highway construction just looked at as a necessity and not questioned and when an AMAZING, SENSABLE, EQUITABLE proposal for a streetcar is close to reality, the cost and tax nazis come in and have to be ABSOLUTELY cetain that there will be NO taxpayer expense, whatsoever (which there shouldn't be), but projects like those I just mentioned are COMPLETELY payed for by taxes...they don't generate ANY money.

Ok. I'm ranting. It's just really frustrating.

[Uffda]

And why did hardly anyone raise questions about the cost of the WDE, widening of I-80 between Omaha and Lincoln, the CB east beltway, etc???

Although I am sure there were questions raised about those highway projects -- most of those highway projects serve more people in a day than the streetcar will probably serve in a week or more.


I say if the developers are so enthused than have them put big time money into it although with Creighton and I dont mean giving up TIF money because it looks like it is already short $10 million I feel the way this first phase is set up that it only benefits the developers and Creighton (as they seem to be moving farther and farther east)

HDR's study assumed OPPD would kick in something like $10 million toward the project.

OPPD had no knowledge of this until the study came out. Which makes one wonder what other completely unfounded assumptions HDR made.

Again, I just want us to be cautious with this idea. The city is already facing a potential 3 BILLION dollar deficit over the decade or so (with the Qwest, pension payments and updating of sewers).

Adding to this should make a lot of people wary.

[DTO Luv]

How the heck would Creighton and developers be the only people benefiting from this? The city would as well. The developers obviously would profit but so would the city from that development. Business owners along the line in the OM and 16th St. (mainly small business owners) would benefit from the riders as well.

I agree with you Streets. People have no problem with the West Dodge Expreesway (which I never use). Construction of the expressway was a minus to businesses in that area for awhile with some closing or moving to temp locations. Now that it's done you're not going to see nearly the amount of development around there like you will with the streetcars. The WDE takes people AWAY from that area.

Seriously though, where streetcars have been built ridership has always exceeded expectations and as well as money spent on NEW development. When I went to the presentation with the guy who helped get Little Rock streetcars he said nearly $1,000,000,000 in new development was built around the line since it's construction. Omaha has had $3,000,000,000 in the past 6 years WITHOUT streetcars. We could stand to make another $3B.

I don't see why people could be so against this. The city is making an effort to attract more people (more taxpayers) to areas where there wouldn't be nearly the amount of development. For example: If someone wanted to build a new strip mall, Walmart, Movie theater, apartment complex, on 300th and Dodge, BUT there was no road, wouldn't they have to make it accessible? The streetcars would be a new 'road' to development. It would make the whole DT area more accessible to residents. I live at 22nd and St. Mary's and may not want to walk the whole way to a new restaurant in North DT. The streetcars would make it easier for me to get there. Just like the WDE makes it easier for others to get around town.

[Omaha Cowboy]

I don't see why people could be so against this.

They're not..For the most part..

It's just the tax-cranky, Ed Jashka clan that is..Nothing new..

..Ciao..LiO....Peace

[MTO]

Why not just start taxing DTO now. Correct big e?

[joeglow]

What are you talking about "making up your mind"? What's to make up. We all know this is good for Omaha.

-Frankly, these ambigious answers are really starting to make me question this project. Itsounds like a bunch of people are saying, "this would be f-ing cool. Oh, and it is a no brainer. It IS good for the economy. You want proof? What proof? It IS good for the economy. Me saying that is all the proof needed."

And why did hardly anyone raise questions about the cost of the WDE, widening of I-80 between Omaha and Lincoln, the CB east beltway, etc???

-I did. I also asked why it was the Federal government's responsibility to pick up the tab and the response was the oh so mature "well, other cities are getting their piece, so we deserve ours."

Seriously!!! Why is highway construction just looked at as a necessity and not questioned".

-First of all, it WAS. Second of all, it serves a heck OF A LOT more people.

and when an AMAZING, SENSABLE, EQUITABLE proposal for a streetcar is close to reality, the cost and tax nazis come in and have to be ABSOLUTELY cetain that there will be NO taxpayer expense, whatsoever (which there shouldn't be).

-Resorting to calling people friend's is ALWAYS a sign you don't have an answer. Why should we not seek this information? Why should I, as a taxpayer NOT be interested in the fiscal responsibility of this?

but projects like those I just mentioned are COMPLETELY payed for by taxes...they don't generate ANY money. .

-I ALWAYS question them. Remember me blasting the Harrison Street expansion?

[DTO Luv]

You make it sound like we on the forum did the study ourselves. I told you if you want a specific answer you'd do better to look on your own.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Joeglow, I know you're a tax lawyer, or whatever, so I'm sure you pay extra close attention to all these financial matters. The general public does not. They accept highway and road construction as a necessity and allow it to devour their tax dollars, but when a new, forward-thinking lightrail project that would benefit the city in a lot of ways begins to come close to reality, the TAX NAZIS (and you KNOW that's a colloquialism) are all over it.

And you want all this proof, and we've told you were to look. We've told you other cities to research for examples. heck, you could probably just call Doug Bisson or the city of Omaha and they would let you look at the study.

[joeglow]

You make it sound like we on the forum did the study ourselves. I told you if you want a specific answer you'd do better to look on your own.

I have asked here and at the website recommended. However, I guess my question is, don't you feel uncomfortable taking on this big of a project without seeing the projections? What if, God forbid, it does fail? Do you just say, "Oh well. We didn't need that $55 million elsewhere?"

Sorry if I am sounding defensive here. I truly do not want to tick people off.

I would LOVE to see something like this, so long as it makes sense. I would also love to see this system all over the city, connecting every corner, but we all know that that is not financially feesible right now. Thus, I would like to see something similar to the Link in Dallas. I just want to make sure we do not put the city in more financial trouble they already are.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

Joeglow...

The thing is...LIGHTRAIL DOESN'T FAIL!!! My god, it's one of the greatest things that can happen to a city. SERIOUSLY!!!

Can anyone cite any example of modern lightrail systems anywhere in the world that have failed in some way? I would be curious to know if anyone has an example.

It would seem, Joeglow, that there's really no precedent for a lightrail system failing. So why are you so cought up on it? The thing's a lock.

So, until YOU can back up your griping, we should probably move on.

[Uffda]

damn joeglow ---- you really seemed to have pushed the right buttons.

[Swift]

Well at this point, god herself could come down here and tell joe"glow" that it's going to be successful, and he still wouldn't be having any of it. If people who do these sort of studies for a living can't convince him, then I'm pretty well sure he doesn't want to be convinced.

Maybe we could set up a special joeglow tax-exemption for this. He doesn't have to pay taxes on anything related to the LRT system ever, and in turn he will never be allowed to ride it.



So anyway, back to substantive conversation...I'm glad the study recommended modern designs for the cars.

[redfield]

I would also love to see this system all over the city, connecting every corner, but we all know that that is not financially feesible right now.

That is exactly why it's so important to build this relatively inexpensive 3.5 mile starter route now!

You cannot build a comprehensive mass transit system all at once, but once you get a starter line going, you can quickly expand it. Other cities that have begun starter lines have added expansions and/or are planning more. See Denver, or Little Rock Arkansas for examples of expanding mass transit.

This study talks about adding a 2nd and possibly 3rd phase to connect the system to Midtown, and the 10th Street cooridor to the zoo and Rosenblatt. Getting federal funding for expansions of an existing system is relatively easy, and can make it possible to connect new areas of Omaha relatively quickly.

Imagine what Omaha could look like in 25 years if we start now. I see a streetcar system connecting the older and higher density parts of Omaha from 72nd street to Council Bluffs, from Florence to South Omaha. I see a light rail line running from the airport to downtown, then turning down Dodge Street and running all the way to Elkhorn. Perhaps eventually we could have another light rail running down 72nd north and south, and streetcars running north and south off of the Dodge Street line. A mass transit system of this scale is possible and financially feasible on a long enough timeline, built piece by piece, but it will never happen if it never starts.

[redfield]

I'm glad the study recommended modern designs for the cars.

I like the modern cars in terms of connecting north downtown together, and I like modern cars for connecting the starterline to other parts of Omaha like midtown and the 10th street cooridor. However, I would like to see a replicated old school streetcar running a loop around the Old Market, and connecting it to the Qwest Center. I understand the concept of wanting to use modern cars to be progressive, but I think we are losing a huge part of the tourism and recreational benefits of running a line around a historic district that is Nebraska's number one toursim draw. I think we lose a lot of the draw for people in west Omaha who might view riding a historic streetcar around as a fun weekend day activity with this kids, vs doing so on a modern looking car. While tourists and convention goers will use any streetcar, modern or historic, I don't think people will travel from all over the area, region, or country to to see and ride on a modern streetcar. I do believe that people will for a historic streetcar.

It's possible to run different cars on the same rail. There are plenty of benefits to the system without the tourism and recreational aspects to make building the system worthwhile. But adding a historic streetcar to the proposed system, perhaps replacing one of the modern cars, without adding any significant cost, would significantly increase the benefits of the system.

[Swift]

You say that like people from West-O are used to riding any form of LRT. I think the novelty of riding LRT won't be diminished just because they are modern designs.

But I'm sure they will eventually use both.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

You say that like people from West-O are used to riding any form of LRT. I think the novelty of riding LRT won't be diminished just because they are modern designs.

But I'm sure they will eventually use both.

Yeah.

[joeglow]

Well at this point, god herself could come down here and tell joe"glow" that it's going to be successful, and he still wouldn't be having any of it.

-Let me explain my reasoning. A city the size of Chicago obviously can support a light rail. A city the size of Wolbach, NE obviously cannot support one. Thus, there is a point somewhere in between these two cities (both in terms of size and amenities) where there is a "break-even" point. While we cannot quantify what that point is, I am simply curious how we know Omaha is on the positive point in that spectrum. However, all I have heard is either "it is a no brainer," or "go look it up yourself."

The first response tells me nothing and second alludes to the fact that someone here has already done all the due diligence (at least, I hope so since they have made up their mind). Thus, if you have done the due diligence, can you not at least point me in the right direction?

[DTO Luv]

A city the size Little Rock (smaller than Omaha) can support streetcars. They are already adding on additional lines because of the higher than expected ridership.

You've been pointed in the right direction numerous times. We've told you go to Omaha streetcar, check other parts of the forum. You're on the internet so nothing in the world is holding you back from what you want to know.

[Uffda]

They are already adding on additional lines because of the higher than expected ridership.

Actually phase two is only a .9 mile extension that will extend the current route up to the William J. Clinton Presidential Center & Park. Phase one had a south loop and north loop that also included the south. It looks like Little Rock also planned their streetcar to go past major hotels and points of interest so that they would pick up the ridership of the tourists who are in town for conventions and such. There is also a fee to ride the streetcar -- $2 for a day pass or 50 cents per round trip for most riders.

http://www.cat.org/rrail/

[joeglow]

A city the size Little Rock (smaller than Omaha) can support streetcars. They are already adding on additional lines because of the higher than expected ridership.

Thank you for finally at least giving me something I can look at (Little Rock). While their metro population area is actually slightly BIGGER than Omaha, it is a good starting point

You've been pointed in the right direction numerous times. We've told you go to Omaha streetcar, check other parts of the forum. You're on the internet so nothing in the world is holding you back from what you want to know.

And like I said before, if you are truly interested in getting something done and someone asks where to get information, having a pissing match with them and telling them to do it all themselves is probably not the best way to convince people to undertake the project you support. May I recommend you let the other people here actually try to sell the project?

[adam186]

I would encourage you to get involved. I'm on the Omaha Streetcar Committee and went to the forum that was held a while back ago. The guy from Little Rock that got everything rolling over there was the key note speaker. Some questions were raised about financing and if it would be profitable. Overall, in short, he said the streetcar itself doesn't make a profit or even break even. However, the increased property value, all the development, and increased visitors the streetcar brought to the city made it work. Infact, it worked so well that they are already extending the line to different parts of the city. If Little Rock, Arkansas can do it, I'm sure we can. We should've done it before.

[DTO Luv]

A city the size Little Rock (smaller than Omaha) can support streetcars. They are already adding on additional lines because of the higher than expected ridership.

Thank you for finally at least giving me something I can look at (Little Rock). While their metro population area is actually slightly BIGGER than Omaha, it is a good starting point

You've been pointed in the right direction numerous times. We've told you go to Omaha streetcar, check other parts of the forum. You're on the internet so nothing in the world is holding you back from what you want to know.

And like I said before, if you are truly interested in getting something done and someone asks where to get information, having a pissing match with them and telling them to do it all themselves is probably not the best way to convince people to undertake the project you support. May I recommend you let the other people here actually try to sell the project?

Little Rock
Population
184,081 in city and 805,207 in metro

Omaha
Population
414,521 in city and 849,248 in metro

I didn't see anyone else trying to 'sell' the project. I can say whatever I want.

[joeglow]

Little Rock
Population
184,081 in city and 805,207 in metro

Omaha
Population
414,521 in city and 849,248 in metro

Interesting. When I looked it up I saw Omaha with 414,521 and a metro of 807,305 whereas Little Rock has 184,564 and a metro of 819,469.

I didn't see anyone else trying to 'sell' the project. I can say whatever I want.

Then, next time let the people who are interested in garnering support for the project handle the PR.

[DTO Luv]

What are you talking about?

[joeglow]

What are you talking about?

Sorry. Thanks for sending the private message (I forget we have that). Hopefully, we resolved it there, without crowding this up more.

[DTO Luv]

I think we have.

[whatsallthefuss]

In the first year of operation, the study estimates there would be 6,800 daily passengers, if the rides are free, and 3,300 daily passengers with a $2 fee. Fahey says he prefers a free service.

I think light rail sounds like fun, but am I the only one who finds these figures overly optimistic ? If it ran 20 hours a day, you're talking 340 people an hour (all hours of the day). I could see these kinds of numbers with a Qwest Center event, between the Old Market and Qwest Center, but during weekdays, these won't even go by the central business district to shuttle restaurant traffic. Can Creighton students alone account for this much traffic. MAT accounts for less than 15,000 passengers a day, and that's metro wide. This is a single line, across a path with very little residential. I think with the light rail will come development which will lead to these numbers, but I just don't see them being attainable in the first year of operation. But then if the study says that's how many passengers there will be, then I guess that's what they'll be.

[DTO Luv]

The first phase will go through the CBD. (The red line is phase 1 in the picture.)




The guy from AR said that weekdays were the lower ridership days with weekends obviously being busier. As has been said before this is more about spurring development than it is moving people around. That's secondary.

As much as I will like watching residential spring up around the line I'm more eager to see how much office space we could get out of it. I'm not expecting another First National but with DT being that much more connected I think a few spec buildings wouldn't be entirely out of the question. The AR guy said they have a big increase in businesses moving DT to be next to the line.

I think keeping it free will really help. $2.00 is alot to go around DT when you get go around on the bus for $1.25.

Say a DT worker at the Woodmen wants to go to Jobber's Canyon for lunch. If they spend $10-$12 on lunch would they be les likely to go if it turns into $12-$14? Plus it's not clear if it's $2 one way or round trip. $4 would be discouraging to many.

[OmahaJaysCU]

In the first year of operation, the study estimates there would be 6,800 daily passengers, if the rides are free, and 3,300 daily passengers with a $2 fee. Fahey says he prefers a free service.

I think light rail sounds like fun, but am I the only one who finds these figures overly optimistic ? If it ran 20 hours a day, you're talking 340 people an hour (all hours of the day). I could see these kinds of numbers with a Qwest Center event, between the Old Market and Qwest Center, but during weekdays, these won't even go by the central business district to shuttle restaurant traffic. Can Creighton students alone account for this much traffic. MAT accounts for less than 15,000 passengers a day, and that's metro wide. This is a single line, across a path with very little residential. I think with the light rail will come development which will lead to these numbers, but I just don't see them being attainable in the first year of operation. But then if the study says that's how many passengers there will be, then I guess that's what they'll be.

Yes, average, meaning the mean, or in other words, the high ridership on friday, saturday and sunday was averaged with the lower midweek numbers to come up with that estimate. I am sure they assumed that there would be one midweek event somewhere too to increase ridership.