Official:High Speed Rail Discussion(Omaha to Lincoln)

[Swift]

I just spent a week in New York and New Jersey and I'm now convinced that there needs to be a NebTrain line running from UNL / Memorial Stadium to Eppley. I'll explain more in another post.

[icejammer]

I just spent a week in New York and New Jersey and I'm now convinced that there needs to be a NebTrain line running from UNL / Memorial Stadium to Eppley. I'll explain more in another post.

As some of you may be aware, years ago, a passenger train DID run between Omaha and Lincoln on game days, so it's not exactly a new idea, but I'm interested in your idea.

[Swift]

I just spent a week in New York and New Jersey and I'm now convinced that there needs to be a NebTrain line running from UNL / Memorial Stadium to Eppley. I'll explain more in another post.

As some of you may be aware, years ago, a passenger train DID run between Omaha and Lincoln on game days, so it's not exactly a new idea, but I'm interested in your idea.

I'm talking about laying new track, with some trains that make local stops and some express trains with the ability to get you from Eppley to UNL in under 30 minutes.

The thing that is interesting about NJTran is that instead of laying just two tracks (one in each direction) they lay four (two in each direction) so that express trains ride the inside track and don't get slowed down by the local trains.

[Brad]

Its a good idea,

BUT..... You know how much that would cost!

The best part about UNL to Omaha is that there are already existing tracks that run Directly from The Haymarket/UNL to the Burlington station. Those tracks go through Lincoln, Waverly, Greenwood, Ashland, Gretna, Chalico, Ralston, Omaha! Just buy some trains.

[Big E]

Just buy some trains.

I have plenty of trains in storage. I'm having trouble negotiating with the railroads to let me use the tracks.

If you want rail in our lifetimes between Omaha and Lincoln (which I think is such a no brainer it hurts), you better start talking to the fine folks of Ashland about that lake again, because that's the only thing that will support/warrant it - short of $25-a-gallon gas.

-Big E

[Swift]

Its a good idea,

BUT..... You know how much that would cost!

The best part about UNL to Omaha is that there are already existing tracks that run Directly from The Haymarket/UNL to the Burlington station. Those tracks go through Lincoln, Waverly, Greenwood, Ashland, Gretna, Chalico, Ralston, Omaha! Just buy some trains.

Of course it's going to cost a lot, we just need to convince Nebraska residents that the benefits outweigh the costs.

A train line on existing tracks is really pointless because it ends up taking you longer to get form Omaha to Lincoln than it would driving. The only way this would work is if there was never any parking available at your destination, which isn't the case.

For an Eppley to UNL line to ever be effective, it has to significantly cut down on travel time. That's the only way we're going to convince people to get out of their cars. To cut travel time significantly, we would need an Express train with no other trains on the track to slow it down. I.e. we'd need our own exclusive tracks.

For an effective mass transit system to be implimented in Eastern Nebraska, we need to convince people that it will get them to their destination faster than if they were to drive.

That's how MTA convinced New Yorkers to pay for the Subway back in the day. (They had a famous advertisement campaign: "To Harlem in 15 minutes!")

We'd need a series of well produced ads that are variations on this theme:



And in response to DTO's impending complaint about the mention of the Huskers: To get something like this done, we're going to have to convince the crowd that hates paying taxes. In my experience, these people also tend to be Husker fans. In fact, they tend to be more adamant for the Huskers than they are against paying taxes. So to get something done, these are the people we need to convince.

[Brad]

That is well thought, but you are talking about something that runs 120+ MPH. You want to build a maglev or somehting?

[Swift]

That is well thought, but you are talking about something that runs 120+ MPH. You want to build a maglev or somehting?

That's a common misconception. Having high-speed rail does not mean having a maglev. They are two different things and you can have highspeed rail without it being a maglev.

[Brad]

I know I forgot the wink. However anything at that speed would not be able to have crossings they would have to build viaducts at every crossing, which would really cost a lot of money.

[Swift]

True, but less than doing the same for a highway system.

Much of the technology behind high-speed rail is an improved application of mature standard gauge rail technology using overhead electrification. By building a new rail infrastructure with 20th century engineering, including elimination of constrictions such as roadway at-grade (level) crossings, frequent stops, a succession of curves and reverse curves, and not sharing the right-of-way with freight or slower passenger trains, higher speeds (250–320 km/h) are maintained. Total cost of ownership of HSR systems is generally lower than the total costs of competing alternatives (new highway or air capacity). Japanese systems are often more expensive than their counterparts but more comprehensive because they have their own dedicated elevated guideway, no traffic crossings, and disaster monitoring systems. Despite this, the lion's share of the Japanese system's cost is related to boring tunnels through mountains, as was in Taiwan. Recent advances in wheeled trains in the last few decades have pushed the speed limits past 400 km/h, among the advances being tilting trainsets, aerodynamic designs (to reduce drag, lift, and noise), air brakes, regenerative braking, stronger engines, dynamic weight shifting, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail

More like the track would be elevated while it was in the cities and then drop to at grade when not in the city. And since most of the building materials used for this would be modular anyway, then it would be as expensive as building...say the Dodge Expressway.


And besides, as long as we can get everyone to realize that the benefits outweigh the costs, then it won't matter how expensive it is.

[Brad]

Whats the cost per mile? I am guessing we are going to need about 70 Miles? (it's 61.2 by road)

[Swift]

Whats the cost per mile? I am guessing we are going to need about 70 Miles? (it's 61.2 by road)

Since we are avoiding roads, it would be a more direct line, I'd guess it would probably be less than 61 miles.

As far as price, well I'll research that later, if you want, but I have to leave for work in a minute, so it won't be until tonight.

[Brad]

Whats the cost per mile? I am guessing we are going to need about 70 Miles? (it's 61.2 by road)

Since we are avoiding roads, it would be a more direct line, I'd guess it would probably be less than 61 miles.

But you just can't go blazing through Omaha with a bulldozer, you will have to go around somewhat.

[Zephyr]

No where in the US outside of the Northeast Corridor is there a line with such speeds and capacity, so why all of the sudden are there that many people requiring lightning fast transport between Memorial Stadium and the Airport? You really wouldn’t even have to add track to the BNSF line; just a few sidings for trains to pass each other and you’re all set – that track is in good shape and can handle 79 mph speeds on most of it, so scrapping it and rebuilding a line for 120+ mph would be a waste. I think you could start something up for about $50 million, which would include track improvements, maintenance facility, and rolling stock. This would still be competitive with I-80 speeds in the long run, which is sure to face more congestion as sprawl latches on to the new 3-lanes.

[the1wags]

Besides speed, you have to look at gas ($$$) savings for commuters. Lets do the math...

60 miles 1 way (give or take from DT to DT) 120 miles round trip. Even at 30MPG thats 4 gallons a day. 4 times even $2.50. $10 a day times 5 days a week, $50 a week. 4 weeks, $200 A MONTH. Now say a monthy commute pass is $100.

I work with 2 guys that do exactly that (commute from Lincoln to DT Omaha) and they said they'd gladly add 30mins to an hour MORE to their commute to save on their commute costs.

I'm in full agreement that the BNSF line with a few improvements is the way to go for this.

[Omababe]

Ya know, of all of the ideas so far here, I like this the best, and I think it's the most likely to actually draw some support from the masses. For the most part, we have 2 generations here who are oblivious to (if not hostile to) transit, and the mindset will have to be changed.

I'm not a "big sports fan" but I do like Husker Football, and try to do at least one home game a year. Even from where we are out here, it's still a hassle getting there, a hassle parking, and a big mess when it lets out, and I'm sure many here in Omaha would love to do some kind of a park-n-ride with a nice comfortable train to a couple blocks from the stadium.

(Can you say "club car"? I thought you could.)

I'm assuming this Lincoln station is still in use:



This is not too far from the Stadium, and very close to the party bars.

The tracks are there, the station in Lincoln is there, and, here's what makes the difference, I think the demand would be there! If the public would see how much better it can be with the train instead of the car, it would be a good start of getting support for rail transit.

[the1wags]

God tying regional public transit to Cornsucker foosball makes me want to vomit. Sure it would be great for people to ride to the games, I'm all for that. But please, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, don't paint the damn thing red and call it the "BIG RED EXPRESS" or something |expletive| awful like that. Not everything around here needs to be associated with the freaking Huskers.

Not pointing out anyones post, just venting my annoyance in general.

[DTO Luv]

I don't see how we've jumped from streetcars Downtown to trains to Memorial stadium.

I don't really see the point in connecting the two cities by rail. There is so much more that needs to be done for rail transit in OMAHA before Lincoln is even considered a destination.

It figures that people here are so |expletive| beyond realistic, sick, insane |expletive| mongering babe |expletive| that getting to a football game is a better reason to big rail transit than save money, reduce oil usage, encourage urban development and density. No |expletive| all that. We've got to sell out the stadium to see UNL play Nicholl State while we're wearing our old Eric Crouch jerseys reminiscing about Tommie Frazier while some day hoping that Tom Osborne will come back and coach the team to the Super Bowl.

Can we put faded "Back2Back" bumper stickers on the trains?

[Swift]

I don't see how we've jumped from streetcars Downtown to trains to Memorial stadium.

I don't really see the point in connecting the two cities by rail. There is so much more that needs to be done for rail transit in OMAHA before Lincoln is even considered a destination.

It figures that people here are so |expletive| beyond realistic, sick, insane |expletive| mongering babe |expletive| that getting to a football game is a better reason to big rail transit than save money, reduce oil usage, encourage urban development and density. No |expletive| all that. We've got to sell out the stadium to see UNL play Nicholl State while we're wearing our old Eric Crouch jerseys reminiscing about Tommie Frazier while some day hoping that Tom Osborne will come back and coach the team to the Super Bowl.

Can we put faded "Back2Back" bumper stickers on the trains?

Your anger and bitterness is going to prevent you from ever getting anything you want.

Do you hate the Huskers so much that you'd be willing to sacrifice an effective rail system? Sure it's annoying that people treat a college football team like a religion, but we can also use that obsession of theirs to get things that WE want.

Life is full of compromises. You're not going to get rid of the Huskers, so might as well "use them" to our advantage.

[DTO Luv]

I think it's completely stupid to pin hopes of a transit system on a college football team 60 miles away. It's that kind of mentality that makes me not want to live here and pack up and move and never have to hear about that red menace again.

I'm not saying that I would be opposed to ever having rail between Omaha and Lincoln. But if the promise of getting to husker games is the way it's going to be pitched to people I better call Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Illinois about that job offer in Chicago. There are many other legitimate reasons to build rail. Getting to a husker game without driving pails in comparison. But if people aren't going to be smart enough to figure that out and they want a "Big Red Express" then |expletive| it. I'm wasting my time here because that whole way of thinking is ignorant.

I know this is all hypothetical, but that it would even be brought up and accepted that a good way to pitch rail transit to the red dyed sheep is to get to husker games is just showing that maybe Omaha will never be the place I hope it is and I should move on to where people actually have moved beyond the years 1994 and 1995.

[CapitalGuy]

The reality is that there is quite a bit of commuting between the two cities already. It may not be enough to combine metros, but I think the need for rail is present. Lincoln's airport is very close to becoming non-existent and that reason alone makes a rail connection worthwhile. Not to mention the fact that it is not ignorant to set up a transit system that involves many more people that just one in Omaha would. But enough logic for now.

[Brad]

I don't think Swift ever proposed the husker express, he is just saying that is one of the ways you could market the train to help increase ridership.

Good point Capitalguy. I know people that commute every day also. I also know a lot of people that run down to Lincoln for meetings all the time.


Personally I think an Omaha to Lincoln rail is a good thing, however I think the $50 price tag of the BNSF line modifications is a better deal.

[Swift]

I think it's completely stupid to pin hopes of a transit system on a college football team 60 miles away. It's that kind of mentality that makes me not want to live here and pack up and move and never have to hear about that red menace again.

I'm not saying that I would be opposed to ever having rail between Omaha and Lincoln. But if the promise of getting to husker games is the way it's going to be pitched to people I better call Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Illinois about that job offer in Chicago. There are many other legitimate reasons to build rail. Getting to a husker game without driving pails in comparison. But if people aren't going to be smart enough to figure that out and they want a "Big Red Express" then |expletive| it. I'm wasting my time here because that whole way of thinking is ignorant.

I know this is all hypothetical, but that it would even be brought up and accepted that a good way to pitch rail transit to the red dyed sheep is to get to husker games is just showing that maybe Omaha will never be the place I hope it is and I should move on to where people actually have moved beyond the years 1994 and 1995.

Who cares why people want something as long as they want it? If it's not the Huskers it's the Yankees, or the Cubs or the 49ers or the Gators or the Sooners. People get fanatic for sports regardless of the team or location. One of the main reasons the subway in New York thrived was because people wanted to go up to the Bronx to see the Yankees or to Brooklyn to see the Dodgers or to Queens to see the Mets. So what's the difference between that and the Huskers?
One's college and one's pro. That's the only difference. They're all treated like a religion by their fans, and Yankees fans are even more numerous and vocal than Husker fans.

I'm not in any way a fan of the Huskers or of sports in general, but I recognize that a lot of upper middle class people in Nebraska are. These are the people that need convincing on the rail idea. Sure you could spend a generation or two convincing them to build it only for environmental reasons, but that'd probably take 20 or 30 years. You are striving toward a level of ideological purity on this that is completely unrealistic.

A rail system is democratic, so it should appeal to everyone, not just the environmentally-minded urban dwellers. It has to appeal to EVERYONE.

We get it, you don't like the Huskers. But if you hate the Huskers so much that you're willing to give up something you would otherwise want...will then maybe you should contact those Blue Cross people, because you're not doing anything to help the cause and your level of hatred for the Huskers borders on bigotry.

[Big E]

maybe Omaha will never be the place I hope it is and I should move on to where people actually have moved beyond the years 1994 and 1995.

We did. You forgot 1997.

-Big E

[Swift]

Anyway, here's a rough idea of the map this system should use. The exact stops aren't that important to me. What are important are the two main ideas: 1) Having express trains during peak/business hours that connect the business centers of Lincoln and Omaha with each other and Eppley. 2) Having a local trains that make stops at every station along the way and run late into to the night so college kids can come up to Omaha for a show or go down to Lincoln for a party and still get home at the end of the night (with trains running every half hour until 2am).

There probably should be one or two more stops in Lincoln, but since the only part of Lincoln I know is around the University, I didn't want to put them in random spots.




Also, ideally, this line would extend all the way across the state (hence the need for highspeed trains).

[icejammer]

One of the main reasons the subway in New York thrived was because people wanted to go up to the Bronx to see the Yankees or to Brooklyn to see the Dodgers or to Queens to see the Mets.

You forgot the Giants! ;^)

Hmmm, let me see, New York subway first opened in late 1860's, Yankees moved to Bronx in 1923. The Yankees draw what, 4-5 million a year? The subway has ridership of 1.5 billion a year? Assuming the Mets draw half that and every single game attendee takes the subway, that's less than 0.5% of total ridership. Thriving because of baseball is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

[Big E]

One of the main reasons the subway thrived in NYC is because there's a billion f-ing people there and they have to get around.

-Big E

[icejammer]

My guess is Yankees/Dodgers/Mets/Giants/Jets made up at least 10% of ridership back in the 20's or 30's.

We can throw out the Mets and Jets, they didn't show up until the 60s.

Maybe 1% back in the 20s and 30s, but 10%? Now, I can't find ridership figures that far back, but a couple years ago when ridership hit 1.45 billion, that was the highest level since Truman was in the White House. If they were packing close to 1½ billion on the subway 50 years ago, I'd be willing to bet ridership was close to half a billion back in the 20s and 30s.

And besides, that's totally not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that without the approval of those people, it will never get built. People want to know what's in it for them, giving them a tangible example of how they benefit does wonders in the way of swaying public opinion.

Please realize, I'm just ribbing ya a little, it's my job. Yes, the support of a lot of people needs to be there, and if you saw the article on the beltway in today's OWH (linked in the Beltway post in this forum), you saw that about equal numbers of people rank a beltway and public transit as solutions to traffic woes here in Omaha, which is great news!

And don't worry icejammer, we'll throw a spur up through CB! :;):

Not worrying, I think that would be great if it happens. I don't hold out much hope for high-speed rail in the next 20 years though.

[Omababe]

Uh, let's see, ummmm ... how do I put this? Uh ...

Sorry if I may have hit a nerve here. And speaking freely, the apparent hostility to the football program surprises me.

The thing is, if transit of any kind is to happen, whether it's a small trolley line (Ollie The Trolley on tracks?), or metro light rail, or even the Train To The game, it's not the railfans and the transit buffs and the new urbanists that are gonna have to be sold on the idea.

No, it's the Soccer Moms and SUV Dads, Joe SixPack, and yes, the Big Red fans.

These types have to see a need in order to climb on board, so to speak, and one prime example of where taking a train would be more convenient than driving would be the Saturday morning rush to Lincoln, not to mention the trip back.

Yes, I admit that things like "Big Red Express" and "Cornhusker Coach" have a profound emetic ring to them, the target audience would eat that up and come back for seconds.

Oh well ...

[StreetsOfOmaha]

I definitely see what you're saying. However, I think it could absolutely appeal to all the 'Sker fans without naming it the "Corn Stock Steamer" or something like that.

Beyond Cornhusker games, the value is IMMENSE for Omaha-Lincoln commuters AND students!!! I would have LOVED if I could make it back to Omaha on an easy, quick train while I was at UNL my first semester. heck, I might have even stayed at UNL instead of transferring to UNO...nah, probably not.

Anyway, commuter rail service between Omaha and Lincoln is one of those things that makes too much sense for Nebraska. Debating whether or not it would work or would have ridership is rather futile.

Not only should a plan already be in the works, it should have been up and running 20 years ago. But anyway, I'm getting into grand-scheme problems of our entire nation, not just Omaha or Nebraska.

[Big E]

And speaking freely, the apparent hostility to the football program surprises me.

Omababe, DTO. DTO, Omababe.

Don't worry about it. DTO goes of the rail (no pun intended) because of the Huskers. I think he was turned down for a scholarship or something.

-Big E

[DTO Luv]

Nah. My hatred for them started all the way back in elementary school when my mom left me at home alone because I didn't want dress in husker |expletive| for the game against the Gators. She eventually left the party and picked me up after she realized you can't leave an 8 year old home alone. That's not even some of the extreme behavior I've seen from husker fans. Someone on this site even told me that I would die early if I didn't start liking the huskers. Couldn't figure out if that was a threat or not.

[Bobcat]

According to the Amtrak website, I can go to Lincoln tomorrow for $13.00 if I leave early, or $20.00 if I leave later ... it takes either 1:13 or 1:30 depending on which train I choose. So the service is already there. It's probably not as fast as people would like, but at times it would definitely beat driving.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

True enough, Bobcat. The service IS there. It just takes too long, isn't anywhere frequent enough, and the times it DOES offer are ridiculously late or ridiculously early.

[Coyote]

I have wondered about the times of transit that are offered by Amtrak between Omaha and Lincoln. Is it a case of supply and demand - that these are the only hours that make money for Amtrak - or are they just the most convenient for Amtrak to offer within budget along their existing lines?

[Omababe]

I have wondered about the times of transit that are offered by Amtrak between Omaha and Lincoln. Is it a case of supply and demand - that these are the only hours that make money for Amtrak - or are they just the most convenient for Amtrak to offer within budget along their existing lines?

IIRC, the only thing currently running between Omaha and Lincoln is the once-a-day Chicago to San Francisco train, and that's frequently very late. I think that's mostly based on demand for the longer trips that this makes.

[StreetsOfOmaha]

The fact that there is an "Omaha to Lincoln service" is pure happenstance, and I'm sure not based on "demand" at all. I'm sure it's a mere afterthought to Amtrak. The California Zephyr just happens to serve both cities. I'm sure the amount of people that actually use the Zephyr to get from Omaha to Lincoln or Lincoln to Omaha is MINISCULE.

[UNOstudent]

2003 NTRAC Report about commuter service between Omaha and Lincoln

Ridership forecasts in Chapter 3 indicated a potential travel demand for morning and afternoon
service to both Omaha and Lincoln. The purpose of this chapter is to provide an operating plan
for such a service. Presented here are the schedules, operating costs, revenues, and capital costs
of this service for the start-up year of 2010. Other prerequisites for the service are also
discussed, including operating agreements, an institutional structure, and transit integration. A
discussion of the potential for a rail link to Eppley Airfield concludes the chapter.
SERVICE CONCEPT
Route
The service is assumed to operate on the BNSF trackage between Omaha (the current Amtrak
stop) and Lincoln (Union Station, the current Amtrak stop). This route is the only direct route
available, and is used once daily by Amtrak’s California Zephyr. The California Zephyr’s
schedule allows approximately 1 hour and 10 minutes between Omaha and Lincoln, but the
actual operating time necessary is only 1 hour.
Rolling Stock, Stations, and Run Time
A contemporary self-propelled Diesel Multiple Unit (DMU) train set with ample acceleration
and deceleration rates should be able to complete the trip in about 55 minutes. Intermediate
stops would add approximately 3 minutes each to the trip time. Assuming a suburban stop in
southwestern Omaha, a mid-point stop at Gretna, and a suburban stop on the eastern periphery of
Lincoln, a DMU schedule of 1 hour 5 minutes should be attainable.
Service Levels and Connections to Transit
Service will be bi-directional during the morning and evening peak commute periods. Four
different service levels are discussed in the following section. There will be no weekend service,
but trains will carry special event traffic, i.e. Cornhusker football fans between Omaha and
Lincoln. Transit operations in Lincoln and Omaha would work with the commuter rail service
for an integrated transit solution moving riders beyond stations to work centers and back again.

http://www.nebraskatransportation.org/d ... -final.pdf

Commuter train info on page 75 or click 'commuter rail operating plan' on the left side.

[S33]

Any updates on the progress of this topic? How feasible and likely is this idea?

[almighty_tuna]

Any updates on the progress of this topic? How feasible and likely is this idea?

No, quite and not very