WSJ on the struggles of downtown St. Louis

[Greg S]

It did let me read it once I got rid of the pop up:

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/commerc ... Lsi4dYy3yb

[skinzfan23]

It did let me read it once I got rid of the pop up:

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/commerc ... Lsi4dYy3yb

That was a good read, thanks for posting.

[Athomsfere]

I keep waiting for STL to make a comeback. Such a wonderful city with so much potential.

It will be a sad day on paper in what, 2070 or so when the much lesser KC overtakes the STL metro.

[Cermak]

Hopefully St Louis can figure out its problems as it was at one time a top ten American city, but not anymore. Still a fascinating city.

[skinzfan23]

I haven't been for prob 15-20 years, but there is so much crime in the St Louis area. I had a friend that was from St Louis and she used to ask me why I thought Omaha was better. I remember stating that I would live in Omaha any day of the week over St Louis. Sure there is some money there and they do have the Cardinals and their stadium going for them, but when I was last there, anywhere downtown and just north was very sketchy.

[strangerthings]

I keep waiting for STL to make a comeback. Such a wonderful city with so much potential.

It will be a sad day on paper in what, 2070 or so when the much lesser KC overtakes the STL metro.

You won’t have to wait that long: 2030’s-2040’s

[iamjacobm]

A 587 foot office tower with 1.4 million SF in downtown STL just sold for $3.6 million or $2.57/SF. It sold for as much as $205 million in the early 2000s. It is assumed there is some undisclosed debt being assumed in the deal, but that is still such a crazy number for an office block. Essentially the land would probably be worth more if it was an empty lot. For comparison, the First National office building off of 114th and Dodge sold for ~$100/SF this past year.

[Athomsfere]

I keep waiting for STL to make a comeback. Such a wonderful city with so much potential.

It will be a sad day on paper in what, 2070 or so when the much lesser KC overtakes the STL metro.

You won’t have to wait that long: 2030’s-2040’s

Not by my math...

[TitosBuritoBarn]

The article is a little misleading. Some of the people quoted in it have stated their comments were taken out of context.

Downtown St. Louis is not as active as other downtowns, but it's not as bad as it's made out to be by the WSJ. I work downtown and activity seems to be picking up as some of the larger companies have started enforcing their in-office policies. Crime is way down, as it is in most major cities (except KC, for some reason) and significant work is being done to redevelop four of the major mid- and high-rises that are currently vacant. The AT&T tower that was recently sold $3.6 million likely also has significant renovation work to do, which is part of the reason for the price. Another vacant high-rise, the former Millennium hotel, was purchased by a real estate firm 10 years ago, who closed the hotel and have just sat on the property since, though all the while keeping up with property taxes. The City has started the process for eminent domain to take the building away from them and sell it to someone who will do something with the property. There is significant interest in it from other developers. Alternatively, the threat of eminent domain may scare the real estate firm into doing something with their property. It's prime real estate with one of the best views of the Arch in the City: https://maps.app.goo.gl/nC4Vn3MQHaRzw5ME7.

What should also help downtown is the significant amount of redevelopment planned or occuring to the west or south of it.

Anecdotally, I was in "clean" Minneapolis last week for a conference and felt about as safe walking around downtown and riding the light rail there as I do here in St. Louis. That is to say I never really felt threatened, but there were certainly some sketchy characters around.

[CBJason]

The article is a little misleading. Some of the people quoted in it have stated their comments were taken out of context.

Downtown St. Louis is not as active as other downtowns, but it's not as bad as it's made out to be by the WSJ. I work downtown and activity seems to be picking up as some of the larger companies have started enforcing their in-office policies. Crime is way down, as it is in most major cities (except KC, for some reason) and significant work is being done to redevelop four of the major mid- and high-rises that are currently vacant. The AT&T tower that was recently sold $3.6 million likely also has significant renovation work to do, which is part of the reason for the price. Another vacant high-rise, the former Millennium hotel, was purchased by a real estate firm 10 years ago, who closed the hotel and have just sat on the property since, though all the while keeping up with property taxes. The City has started the process for eminent domain to take the building away from them and sell it to someone who will do something with the property. There is significant interest in it from other developers. Alternatively, the threat of eminent domain may scare the real estate firm into doing something with their property. It's prime real estate with one of the best views of the Arch in the City: https://maps.app.goo.gl/nC4Vn3MQHaRzw5ME7.

What should also help downtown is the significant amount of redevelopment planned or occuring to the west or south of it.

Anecdotally, I was in "clean" Minneapolis last week for a conference and felt about as safe walking around downtown and riding the light rail there as I do here in St. Louis. That is to say I never really felt threatened, but there were certainly some sketchy characters around.

Also, wasn’t there a proposal about a year or so ago for further redevelopment of areas along the river and arch? What’s the latest with that. I want to say it was a $1B+ plan.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

The article is a little misleading. Some of the people quoted in it have stated their comments were taken out of context.

Downtown St. Louis is not as active as other downtowns, but it's not as bad as it's made out to be by the WSJ. I work downtown and activity seems to be picking up as some of the larger companies have started enforcing their in-office policies. Crime is way down, as it is in most major cities (except KC, for some reason) and significant work is being done to redevelop four of the major mid- and high-rises that are currently vacant. The AT&T tower that was recently sold $3.6 million likely also has significant renovation work to do, which is part of the reason for the price. Another vacant high-rise, the former Millennium hotel, was purchased by a real estate firm 10 years ago, who closed the hotel and have just sat on the property since, though all the while keeping up with property taxes. The City has started the process for eminent domain to take the building away from them and sell it to someone who will do something with the property. There is significant interest in it from other developers. Alternatively, the threat of eminent domain may scare the real estate firm into doing something with their property. It's prime real estate with one of the best views of the Arch in the City: https://maps.app.goo.gl/nC4Vn3MQHaRzw5ME7.

What should also help downtown is the significant amount of redevelopment planned or occuring to the west or south of it.

Anecdotally, I was in "clean" Minneapolis last week for a conference and felt about as safe walking around downtown and riding the light rail there as I do here in St. Louis. That is to say I never really felt threatened, but there were certainly some sketchy characters around.

Also, wasn’t there a proposal about a year or so ago for further redevelopment of areas along the river and arch? What’s the latest with that. I want to say it was a $1B+ plan.

Yes! Gateway South. I've actually had the privilege of doing some work on this project. It aims to redevelop an old warehouse district and use the site's location next to the river and most major St. Louis highways to develop a light manufacturing space. The manufacturing uses will be surrounded by residential and entertainment. There are some recent renderings here: https://good-developments.com/gateway-south-stl.

[Renovator2559]

Downtown St. Louis is not as active as other downtowns, but it's not as bad as it's made out to be by the WSJ. I work downtown and activity seems to be picking up as some of the larger companies have started enforcing their in-office policies.

St Louis, was one of the cities on my way from the eclipse.
One thing I noticed on the St Louis Riverfront, is that it's mainly meant for passing through, walking and jogging. Also, the Riverfront is more compact.
I did see people but that's mainly from the arch monument.

The downtown did feel a bit quiet but that was probably because it was a Tuesday.

Like Tulsa and Omaha, I like the fact that there are no beg buttons just timed seamless crossings. Unlike Oklahoma City.



The downtown streets of St Louis did look more battered down than any of the cities I visited in one trip, (Omaha has some improvement in fixing battered down streets).
The sidewalks were also in rough shape and basic, like Omaha sidewalks in some places. Oklahoma City and Tulsa took the price in best sidewalks for these cities, hands down. (I'll be more detailed as to why in the sidewalk thread)















Although St Louis may not have as many skyscrapers for its size. I just love the roman style skyscrapers they have







The beauty and detail of this massive building was captivating.



I found it tragic how East St Louis in the past was used like a dumping ground for illicit behavior, causing a growth in crime and amoral behavior on East St Louis. Which lead to the decline of the city for some time.

It boggles my mind how Mayor Jean Stotthert is from St Louis and she's done a fantastic job in doing a fine job in Omaha as if it was her hometown!

Very interesting how Missouri has two border cities KC and St Louis. As well as how the Missouri sides of these cities became the dominant cities.

[Renovator2559]

It's not just WSJ, DailyMail UK; also wrote this article on April 28th on how St Louis is doing. On my trip there, the only visible area of decline that I saw was East St Louis on the Illinois side.


America's forgotten 'doom loop' city, where $205m skyscrapers are selling for under $4m and the decaying downtown has become a ghost town
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... apers.html

Daily Mail is one of the few news websites that allows comments, the comments were interesting from St Louis residents.

[Cermak]

I haven’t been to St Louis in over 25 years. I would Like to go down and see exactly what it’s like these days. Just looking at downtown while it lacks height, it looks pretty good in the density department.

[strangerthings]

I haven’t been to St Louis in over 25 years. I would Like to go down and see exactly what it’s like these days. Just looking at downtown while it lacks height, it looks pretty good in the density department.

Fine on sports game days. Empty otherwise. The density is fluff now that most are empty or underutilized in the downtown.

[Renovator2559]

This video shows so many old pictures of St Louis of the past.
Its striking the amount of beautiful architecture that was in St. Louis. How the suburban sprawl, and the building of ugly modernist boxes of the mid-20th century led to the decline of St. Louis. I couldn't help but feel sorrow as I watched the past in comparison to the present of St. Louis. The St Louis streetcar network was beautiful!

It's sad how the greedy automobile corporations, who not only pushed car centric policies, also bought out all streetcar companies and ran them to the ground. Also the government enforcement of modernism, as well as the high suburban subsidies all contributed to the decline of St Louis and many cities.

Fine on sports game days. Empty otherwise. The density is fluff now that most are empty or underutilized in the downtown.

KC tends to trade stats with St Louis, so they are very similar and not much different. KC is also a sports focused city.
Let's not forget the Strong Towns study using Urban3 data that did a case study on KC.
"Kansas City: The American Story of Growing into Decline" "From “Paris of the Plains” to Freeway Capital of America"
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... ressed.pdf

Also, let's not forget St. Joseph, south of us, that town also continues to lose population annually and was a much more vibrant town in the past. Maybe the amount of bisecting highways and interstates dividing the neighborhoods are part of the problem? St Joseph sure does have plenty of highway miles for a medium sized town. I wish I knew why several population centers in Missouri follow the same pattern.

Also Missouri was ranked in U.S. News: Best states in 2023, Missouri was 30 and now in 2024; Missouri is 35, something has to be done because the state also plays a role in how well its cities perform.
2024 Report:
https://www.usnews.com/media/best-state ... s-2024.pdf
2023 Report:
https://www.usnews.com/media/best-state ... s-2023.pdf

[Cermak]

Very informative video, you forget how St Louis was once one of the world’s leading cities. Sad that it’s just a shell of what it once was. They still have some incredible buildings.

[TitosBuritoBarn]

Although St Louis may not have as many skyscrapers for its size. I just love the roman style skyscrapers they have

These buildings were built this way in part because they are both courthouses. The first two images are the Federal courthouse, the third is the City courthouse.

[Renovator2559]

These buildings were built this way in part because they are both courthouses. The first two images are the Federal courthouse, the third is the City courthouse.

Yeah I didn't mention, but it is obvious that those buildings have federal symbols and usually roman style buildings tend to be federal buildings. At least the older buildings that were well done and beautiful with traditional beauty patterns.

[Greg S]

Anybody here about a possible riot in downtown St Louis this weekend after their big fireworks show?

[TitosBuritoBarn]

No riots. But there was a shooting like four blocks away hours later.

[OmahaRedWing]

So heard from people that were in St Louis for the Def Leppard/Journey/Cheap Trick concert that it was more than just a single shooting. I guess you could here the commotion from the hotels over at Ballpark Village and they recommended not leaving the property....

[Louie]

So heard from people that were in St Louis for the Def Leppard/Journey/Cheap Trick concert that it was more than just a single shooting. I guess you could here the commotion from the hotels over at Ballpark Village and they recommended not leaving the property....

Looks like the local news there covered what you may be referring to: https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/crime ... 0555e6ddd2